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T

So I don't really give a crap about Snowden, but what do you all think about the government spying on its own people?

Personally, I've always said you can't win a war on terror. And when it degrades to this point, you know you've lost...

But there is no backing out now. Radical Islam is determined to destroy the west and the west can't destroy an ideology.

But back to that spy stuff, not that I have much to hide, but I enjoy my privacy like most people.

This espionage is much too far over the security/privacy line.

Thank you Obama, but I can securify muhself, sir. Stealing my phone records isn't going to help you fight an ideology that's older than you are.

(Oh, but it helped us stop some subway bomber!!)

Oh yeah? Well congrats! WTF happened with Tamerlan Tzarnaev? Let me guess, somebody slept in that day?

*facepalm*

This entire survelance program is a joke that steps on our rights, and the American people should treat it as such.

As for Snowden, who cares? Stay in Hong Kong, come get prosecuted, whatever. Your choice. Thank you for the leak and remember, you put yourself there, dude.

Just don't go selling the other secrets you don't have to China, please. :P

(Like he's reading this or something)

So concludes my early morning thoughts over a cup of cheap coffee and a headache from all that beer I drank last night.

Enjoy.

<end of rant>

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Obama can now see how much time I spend on Reddit, whopdee do.

 

But seriously, the government shouldn't be spying on us.

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I doubt the government has the time, manpower or a reason to care about every individual person.

Its stupid and a waste of time.

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Personally, I've always said you can't win a war on terror. And when it degrades to this point, you know you've lost...

But there is no backing out now. Radical Islam is determined to destroy the west and the west can't destroy an ideology.

...

 

 

what's this supposed to mean?

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Actually, the ideology is younger than Obama. The current program doesn't really bother me, but governments inherently never give up power. Let'em have this, next day they'll have worse. It's a slippery slope with lots of s's. 

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I see you're referring to a religion as an ideology that is determined to destroy the west...

 

Evidence?

Edited by Unsatisfied Monarch

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I see you're referring to a religion as an ideology that is determined to destroy the west...

 

Evidence?

I don't understand.

 

Are you asking for evidence of this cultural ideology? (he's not saying the religion is this ideology)

 

or are you justifying the government and using this as evidence for your justification?

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Monarch, Al-Quada should be all the evidence you need?

What they are is a pretty damn good example of using religion to destroy the west.....

I'm not saying Islam wants to destroy the west.... But yes, I am saying that a religious ideology wants to destroy the west. Certain Islamic beliefs.

If it makes you feel any better, NK wants to destroy the west too, and they aren't muslim....

King, well I'm not an expert on Islamic history, but I imagine that these extreme muslim beliefs have existed for some time. Obviously in a different way as opposed to the modern world versions.

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King, well I'm not an expert on Islamic history, but I imagine that these extreme muslim beliefs have existed for some time. Obviously in a different way as opposed to the modern world versions. 

 
 

And that's the weirdest thing, they're not. 

 

I mean, you have the Khajirites and the sarrasins, but those were extremely tiny. The sarrasins were like the muslim counterparts to the Templar Knights, but they for one were against suicide and emphasized attacking soldiers (like the Templar Knights). The Khawajiri was a massive muslim population after Muhammad (pbuh) died, and they're belief was basically that any of the Caliphs that did anything wrong should relinquish their position immediately, either by force or peacefully. In other words, the minute a leader becomes fallible they must be disposed. This group had none of the well known muslims or scholars of old, though, and it was mainly lay people They died out extremely quickly from warring against anyone (although some trace Ibadi muslims, a tiny sect only in Oman, as to following Khajarite beliefs in everything but the violent part). NOt to mention they never cited examples and proofs of what they believed while being busy killing each other out. It is important to note that they didn't do suicide or kill civillians anyways, but they are the closest link to modern extremism (and yet modern extremists themselves don't cite the Khawajiri in defense of their beliefs). They did have good poetry I hear though...

 

 

Modern muslim terrorism is such a shockingly new phenomenon. It was a build up of centuries of muslim competition against the west climaxing only in the 20th century, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It is important to understand Muslims when it comes to this, as virtually all muslims around the world "are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power", as the Clash of Civilizations guy put it (I don't think any muslim can deny this, myself included). When the Ottomans finally fell, it was the final "aha" moment of the muslim world that they are in fact, inferior to the west. Worse so was when countries like China and Korea, that were worse off than the muslim world at the time, quickly accelerated in growth and became top dog countries. But the muslim world lagged behind. 

 

 

And thus we find terrorism. It stems from this inferiority agains thte west felt, and muslims were forced to ask teh question why they were failing. Several answers came, with teh extremists answering that Muslims drafted too far away from their roots. Modernization was the problem, not the solution. We find in the writings of Syed Qutb, a muslim "theologian" who I very much respect for his amazing story (his best friend, the Egyptian dictator Nasser, ended up becoming his arch nemesis), was a guy who absolutely hated the west after studying somewhere in America. He wants global war against the west and started jewish conspiracy stories and whatnot while sitting in prison for 10 years with nothing to do. His work is highly influential, and it is what inspired AL-Qaeda and the likes. This is like 1960s, when it all started. It is important to note that he never studied islam anywhere in his entire life (besides while in prison), and who insists that the Prophet's best friend, nephew, other close friends, and certain wives were all wrong about Islam while he alone is right. Not to mention the primary person he cited for his beliefs was Ibn Taymiyyah (an extremely controversial muslim theologian from Mongol times who is widely revered but only followed by saudi arabians pretty much). Turns out the work by Ibn Taymiyyah that he cited to defend his beliefs was miscopied wrong, and in his original work the word "kill" wasn't there. He was also an anarchist. The Taliban aught to know that. 

 

 

tldr; muslim envy and hatred of the west has always been around in various shapes and forms, but the idea of aggressive, civillian-killing retaliation is extremely knew. I'm not sure if Syed Qutb was a fan of civilian killing either. 

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Well, I suppose that makes a lot of sense. :P

Id say their real problem is the division in Islam. In Christianity, christians faught amongst eachother (mostly catholics and proddys) because the other side just had to be wrong. Nowadays, Christians are a lot more unified. Although there still may be disagreements, for the most part, Christians all over the world tend to remain peaceful toward eachother without competition or war in the name of religion and culture.

Islam on the other hand, (not sure why) seems to end up resorting to war whenever two sects disagree.

I imagine that if the Arab/Islamic world were to unify themselves more, put aside differences, and maybe hate Israel a bit less, they'd progress a lot more.

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akk, division is complicated. for example, Christians nowadays have their churches completely segregatedby race.you have Asian, black,and white churches all separately.you have little shared bond between christians in that a global culture doesnt exist. for example, muslims glonally, from north china to the US felt the shock of the Russian afghan invasion, for the very reason that afghanis were muslim. I have always, for my entire life, felt more comfortable talking to Muslims than non Muslims, just like cultures. there is a lot more internal divisions between muslims, but a lot more unity when dealing with externals, if you know what I mean.

also, we do have two.sects that war each other, but nevertheless only two sects :P

Edited by The King

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You mean sunnis and shia?

From what I hear, Al-Quada targets Sufi sects and other small ones they veiw as heretics. Not sure if you consider that war....

And about Christians, you are right about that. But as time has progressed, Christians have become more unified. Most Christians I know may belong to a specific church, but they don't really differentiate between say, a catholic and a protestant. The only real Christian church I see being excluded from the unity around here is the Mormon church.

IE: Much of my family is mormon, much of it is proddy. The proddy members of my family don't really stick to one sect. They've moved around from church to church and don't pay any attention to the meaningless differences.

My mormon family is quite relaxed and doesn't much care what type of Christian somebody is.

I think the younger generations will abolish the divided sects of Christianity eventually. You might still have different sects, but I mean, the actual promotion of a particular sect, I believe will be done away with. I know many younger Christians who refuse to identify with any sect.

I've noticed Islam is united in the sense that Muslims care for other muslims in general. But that doesn't stop them from killling eachother with both sides shouting "Allah Akbar" assuming Allah favors them over their fellow muslim enemies.

Its kind of like black on black crime as opposed to white on black crime.

It seems Muslims kill eachother a lot more than non muslims kill muslims.

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well, I'm glad your smart enough to realize more muslims kill muslims! I think like, 80-95% of terrorist attacks are against muslims by muslims? Probably even more...

 

As for this thing about abolishing sects, I don't quite understand it. You have to choose in some ways. 72 books in the bible, or 66? Is the KJV the inspired word of God, or is it a book of fabrications and likes? unitarian or trinitarian, adoptionist or molinist? Testament of Abraham, true book or not?divinely inspired leader or nobody? These questions are extremely fundamental to the Christian faith, and yet the answers are rather debatable. And I highly doubt that in a few gernerations blacks will no longer go to black churches, vietnamese will no longer go to vietnamese churches, and so and so forth....

 

You have to remember who is killing who. It is extremists killing random people, not the masses killing each other. That distinction is important. It is also, I think, possibly, a more cultural rivalry then a religious one. Almost all the sunni-shia violence is in the middle east. Like 95% of arabs are sunnia. Like 95% of Persians are Shi'a, and they don't really exist anywhere else. Historically there was a lot less Sunni-Shia violence, and at that time Persians weren't necessarily associated with Shiism. Kurds  are another group mixed in with violence with their arab counterparts for a non religious reason in the region.

 

There is also no polarized christian worldview anymore. Everything is nationalism. Do american christians consider themselves Christian first, or American first? Undoubtedly the second, because the same people (americans in general) preach secularism. As for the evangelicals I'd think its the same, because I don't see them reaching out to the black churches and the Vietnamese churches and the liberals and the others.... Speaking about muslims, globally muslim countries put their necks out for palestine, as far as Indonesia where it didn't matter. When afghanistan was invaded, you had people from Saudi Arabia going out there to enlist in some army or work in some refugee camp not because of the violence in particular, but because of the violence against muslims (this is how Bin Laden started out). You still see muslim leaders talking about Bosnia and Chechnya as if that stuff happened just yesterday. 80% of muslims voted for Bush in 2000. 40% of muslims voted for Bush in 2004. Why the change? Iraq and afghan war. Many of the voted for Bush were also purely because Bush was a strong advocate of aid to Pakistan, one of the largest if not the largest muslim ethnic groups here. 20% of muslims voted republican in 2008 too, despite the fact that muslim americans are on average more wealthy than the average american. We are a republican constituency (being wealthier and religiously conservative), but the fact of war against muslims was a game changer for an overwhelming number of muslim voters.

 

 

I agree with your white on black analogy though, that's actually a good way to explain it. I didn't mention sufism cuz they were pretty minor

 

 

And about Christians, you are right about that. But as time has progressed, Christians have become more unified. Most Christians I know may belong to a specific church, but they don't really differentiate between say, a catholic and a protestant. The only real Christian church I see being excluded from the unity around here is the Mormon church.

 

 

And at the same time less go to church. This is america we are talking about too. American christians might have become more unified (nationalism...), but where are you including the vietnamese churches in being more unified now? I think it is a more irreligious movement (not saying christians are irreligious, but that on average they are more so like that then before).

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I just hope the government enjoys all the midget porn I watch.

 

But no really, yeah it's terrible that they're doing it and all but they don't have nearly enough manpower to track and see what every single individual is doing. While it's bad, it probably won't affect normal every day citizens. At least that was the case before it got exposed, who the hell knows now.

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By the way, I read up on this program, and it's not what most people think it is. According to what they claim, the NSA can see who you call and email, but not the contents of either. In order to see content of anything, they have to get a warrant showing the names of the people you talk to in order to see what's inside. Similar to how if I met with  suspicious people for weeks straight and a crime goes out the police would still have to get a warrant to search my house.

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My issue is this whole trend the government has with "we're doing it for your protection" it seems like every violation of privacy is done in the excuse of being for our own good.

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Or how bout those NYPD guys that got caught spying on muslims in New Jersey a while back?

Since 9/11, we've litterally turned the NYPD into a military. Those guys could take on the whole city with what they have now.

The only thing they're missing is ICBMs.

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Or how bout those NYPD guys that got caught spying on muslims in New Jersey a while back?

Since 9/11, we've litterally turned the NYPD into a military. Those guys could take on the whole city with what they have now.

The only thing they're missing is ICBMs.

lol. Those practice emergency runs were the scariest.

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