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The King

Nationalism

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I figured this was a fitting day to talk about this, lol.

 

 

Over the last few months I came to an extraordinary revelation: I don't give two shits about America. Not because of some war or the other or because of what America has done or anything, but because I don't see why I should give two shits about America. I mean, I see all these people devoting their lives to their country, defending it in arguments, waving around their respective flags as if flags mean anything at all. But why? What affinity do we really have to the nation we are born in, or the one we suddenly tie ourselves too through immigration or whatever. What part of our human psyche causes us to be so stupid as to want to die for some giant machine that exists only to better itself at the expense of other giant machines (these machines are countries in case you didn't notice). Why the hell did Obama choose to waste 10 years of his life with a frikkin 20 hour work day? What the hell does he owe to the US, just like anyone. All he's doing is trying to get America better and other countries worse at the expense (if you don't understand, google zero sum game, but I think you should understand).

 

Once again, this is not a rage against America or any country for that matter. This is a rage against something I don't quite understand. I don't understand this idiotic patriotism people have for something that is no more than a machine. I don't understand this nationalistic pride people feel that does nothing but cause violence and class warfare (between nations!). Cultural affinity is something different, but allegiance to a state, as if that state is somehow in charge of that cultural affinity is stupid. Cultural affinity has good outcomes, but I fail to see the same of nationalism. I see nothing more than nationalism being stupidity. When I tell this to people, they often agree with me and the next second they're screaming 'MURICA or waving flags around like they just don't care. Sometimes I feel like no one understands the irony of it all, and I wanted to know what you guys thought.

 

 

proof I care about this issue is that I actually spelled things right with only one spell check fix. LOL

 

 

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I think most people realize this some time during their college years. Some come up with reasons why America deserves some special place in their heart, others decide that the whole world is doomed, and yet others become humanitarians.

Myself, I've taken the apathetic approach. I really can't say I believe in America or any other nation. I realize that hate breeds hate and contempt, contempt. Yet, I'm inclined to sit back and watch the world burn. I won't be an activist or a saint. I can't change the world but I don't have to be a part of the problem either. I'll go to work each day, take care of my own needs, and help the people around me to the best of my ability.

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The US actively discriminates upon homosexuals, spies on it's citizens, and is constantly at war. How am I supposed to be proud of any of that?

 

Guess I'm not very patriotic.

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I hate America. The idea of America is a beautiful thing, the reality is a disgrace.

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I really don't care about America. I mean of all the civilizations throughout history and I'm supposed to give a ******** about one because I happened to be born here by random chance? Yeah no.

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I really don't care about America. I mean of all the civilizations throughout history and I'm supposed to give a My Little Pony about one because I happened to be born here by random chance? Yeah no.

Aren't you a texas secessionist though? That sounds nationalistic.

 

I hate America. The idea of America is a beautiful thing, the reality is a disgrace.

There's a big irony in this country. Freedom to its people, death to everyone else.

 

The US actively discriminates upon homosexuals, spies on it's citizens, and is constantly at war. How am I supposed to be proud of any of that?

 

Guess I'm not very patriotic.

Would you be patriotic if it didn't do any of that?

 

I think most people realize this some time during their college years. Some come up with reasons why America deserves some special place in their heart, others decide that the whole world is doomed, and yet others become humanitarians.

Myself, I've taken the apathetic approach. I really can't say I believe in America or any other nation. I realize that hate breeds hate and contempt, contempt. Yet, I'm inclined to sit back and watch the world burn. I won't be an activist or a saint. I can't change the world but I don't have to be a part of the problem either. I'll go to work each day, take care of my own needs, and help the people around me to the best of my ability.

Well I guess I'm an early bird. I have a respect for people like you. I just couldn't go down that path myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another question I think people need to ask. Do you owe your country anything? I mean, it did, after all, educate you, protect you, provide health care, etc. So is it ethical to be nationalist on the grounds that you owe that country something?

Edited by The King

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I my self am an american, and while I'm not screaming 'F*** yeah! MURICA!' I would consider myself Patriotic. 

 

I think the problem is alot of you forget what red white and blue actually does for you. I was born in the States, which despite what you all may think it actually promotes 'freedom' and allows you to follow your dreams and do what you

 

There are many... MANY countries out there where as a kid you are hurled into an army, slavery, or prostitution. Hell I was in South Africa not to long ago for work and kids die on their own from starvation and lack of resources. Not only that I was scared to walk around, I don't know if there was no regulations  or something but people were walking around with guns and knifes and a bunch of other crap, and when they saw me a white guy walking around... Lets just say I didn't get very many good looks, thank god I had guards with me.

 

So today on Fourth of July, I tend to not look at the bad things NSA and all that other crap in the news, I personally celebrate our freedom and our pursuit for happiness. You should cherish our ability to live how we want and do what we want. So I guess I would say yes, we owe our country something, if our country wasn't established there would be no cops, no rules which would result in death, stealing, raping the works. But those rules keep us safe, and dare I say I personally believe NSA's actions was in our best interest.

 

Yes there are some downfalls to our country but we could have it so, sooooo much worse. For instance... if we were in Egypt we wouldn't be talking about this or we'd probably be hung.

 

Cheers and Happy 4th of July!

-Zukran

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First off, nationalism is a very human belief. Look at history and you see that people tend to love their places of birth as if it was a mother, so we shouldn't be so surprises nor should we denied it. You should at least feel some sources of connection to something.

 

Second, something definitely  when wrong when the US started developing, from a country that promoted freedom, democracy and law, they started aggressively expand. Suddenly there was the Monroe Doctrine . the Confederacy, the US started intervening in Latin America, protecting it interests. It wasn't the first country to abolish slavery in this Hemisphere and it was the only one that acquired colonies.  Now people look to you like the obnoxious trigger-happy idiot. 

 

 I don't know man, i think Americans should start changing some aspect of their societies, rednecks shouldn't be the only one  to feel patriotic and proud of their nation.

Edited by Jose Olmedo

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I read a quote a while ago, but I don't know where I read it or whom said it (I might have even read it on these forums for all I remember), but I'll try my best to quote it.

 

"Nationalism is the idea that your nation is superior to all others simply because you were born there."

 

That's not word for word, but that's the basic idea.

 

All I have to say is that it's sad to see a world where so many people are divided by war, politics, and other means because of arrogance.

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Well, I'm surprised by the wide variety of people commenting, but I'm glad it's so.

I my self am an american, and while I'm not screaming 'F*** yeah! MURICA!' I would consider myself Patriotic. 

 

I think the problem is alot of you forget what red white and blue actually does for you. I was born in the States, which despite what you all may think it actually promotes 'freedom' and allows you to follow your dreams and do what you

 

There are many... MANY countries out there where as a kid you are hurled into an army, slavery, or prostitution. Hell I was in South Africa not to long ago for work and kids die on their own from starvation and lack of resources. Not only that I was scared to walk around, I don't know if there was no regulations  or something but people were walking around with guns and knifes and a bunch of other crap, and when they saw me a white guy walking around... Lets just say I didn't get very many good looks, thank god I had guards with me.

 

So today on Fourth of July, I tend to not look at the bad things NSA and all that other crap in the news, I personally celebrate our freedom and our pursuit for happiness. You should cherish our ability to live how we want and do what we want. So I guess I would say yes, we owe our country something, if our country wasn't established there would be no cops, no rules which would result in death, stealing, raping the works. But those rules keep us safe, and dare I say I personally believe NSA's actions was in our best interest.

 

Yes there are some downfalls to our country but we could have it so, sooooo much worse. For instance... if we were in Egypt we wouldn't be talking about this or we'd probably be hung.

 

Cheers and Happy 4th of July!

-Zukran

Thank God someone hash a different opinion, I was afraid everyone would agree with me (at least in some shape, I haven't elaborated too much). It's important to realize though that I'm not criticizing the US here. I could, but that's a side argument. The US could be a hundred times more a freedom loving country, and I'd still be baffled. You are talking about all the great things America does, fine, but does that justify dying for it? America is a beuracratic machine, nothing more. It acts on its behalf, to benefit itself, at the expense of everyone else. I don't think we need to debate that. If the people of the US didn't care about freedom, America wouldn't propagate it in words if not deed with zealotry as it does. Zukran: would you die for your country? or should you? And if so, why? Even in the event you disagreed with its specific cause? what constitutes your selfless giving to an unthinking, uncaring, robotic machine?And what does July 4th mean to you? Is it some sort of celebration of the great things this country has done, or is it blind idol worshiping of some machine that tells you to worship it? The latter is most certainly for the masses.

Also, are you saying someone from South Africa shouldn't care about South Africa? I'm confused. But you brought up some serious ethical questions. America has done a lot of great things for me,, but only for the reason that it benefits itself. Does America help me so I can be happy, or so I can help America do better? America's helping of me is only selfish, but do I still owe it something despite her ulterior motives? Or maybe you could see it more as a transaction. America protects me, I help it. I'm not sure how to see it myself, and that's why I posted.

I read a quote a while ago, but I don't know where I read it or whom said it (I might have even read it on these forums for all I remember), but I'll try my best to quote it.

 

"Nationalism is the idea that your nation is superior to all others simply because you were born there."

 

That's not word for word, but that's the basic idea.

 

All I have to say is that it's sad to see a world where so many people are divided by war, politics, and other means because of arrogance.

Damn straight. Should we care about our family? Aside from the parents that conceived you, what the hell do you owe your uncle or your sister or even your children?

 

First off, nationalism is a very human belief. Look at history and you see that people tend to love their places of birth as if it was a mother, so we shouldn't be so surprises nor should we denied it. You should at least feel some sources of connection to something.

 

Second, something definitely  when wrong when the US started developing, from a country that promoted freedom, democracy and law, they started aggressively expand. Suddenly there was the Monroe Doctrine . the Confederacy, the US started intervening in Latin America, protecting it interests. It wasn't the first country to abolish slavery in this Hemisphere and it was the only one that acquired colonies.  Now people look to you like the obnoxious trigger-happy idiot. 

 

 I don't know man, i think Americans should start changing some aspect of their societies, rednecks shouldn't be the only one  to feel patriotic and proud of their nation.

Where ya from jose? I was afraid everyone who responded was from 'murica, i'm glad thats not the case.
I'm asking myself some tough philosophical questions on ethics on whatnot. A while back I concluded that the most human answer is usually the right one - God made us think this way for a reason, right? Even when we do wrong, we tend to know it. Which is why I argue against utilitarianism, but I'm not too sure about that argument anyway. Certainly nationalism is a very human thing, but should it be? Should we be nationalistic? I think your confusing cultural affinity with nationalism. Should I support AMERICANS because I know them better and share similar values, or should I support AMERICA because- well, why should I? And the US has always supported freedom - just when the masses wanted her too. Appease the masses so the country continues to do well. And almost all americans feel proud and patriotic, I'll best post people posting here do to without realizing it. Maybe. We don't have a homogenous culture, but we have  homogenous government. We all feel a strong affinity to the government (but we shouldn't...I think) despite the giant clash b/w republicans and democrats. Obama as president doesn't stop right wingers from joining the army out of (misguided?) love for the country, for example.

 

 

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Aren't you a texas secessionist though? That sounds nationalistic.

Eh, for me (though there are that are very certainly nationalistic) it's more of an America sucks and we're better off on our own thing.

 

And don't get me wrong here at one point it definitely was, but lately it's starting to get more to the point where I like Texas and all and just dislike the reality of what the US is compared to what we're supposed to be.

Edited by Shellhound

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Well, I'm surprised by the wide variety of people commenting, but I'm glad it's so.

Thank God someone hash a different opinion, I was afraid everyone would agree with me (at least in some shape, I haven't elaborated too much). It's important to realize though that I'm not criticizing the US here. I could, but that's a side argument. The US could be a hundred times more a freedom loving country, and I'd still be baffled. You are talking about all the great things America does, fine, but does that justify dying for it? America is a beuracratic machine, nothing more. It acts on its behalf, to benefit itself, at the expense of everyone else. I don't think we need to debate that. If the people of the US didn't care about freedom, America wouldn't propagate it in words if not deed with zealotry as it does. Zukran: would you die for your country? or should you? And if so, why? Even in the event you disagreed with its specific cause? what constitutes your selfless giving to an unthinking, uncaring, robotic machine?And what does July 4th mean to you? Is it some sort of celebration of the great things this country has done, or is it blind idol worshiping of some machine that tells you to worship it? The latter is most certainly for the masses.

Also, are you saying someone from South Africa shouldn't care about South Africa? I'm confused. But you brought up some serious ethical questions. America has done a lot of great things for me,, but only for the reason that it benefits itself. Does America help me so I can be happy, or so I can help America do better? America's helping of me is only selfish, but do I still owe it something despite her ulterior motives? Or maybe you could see it more as a transaction. America protects me, I help it. I'm not sure how to see it myself, and that's why I posted.

Damn straight. Should we care about our family? Aside from the parents that conceived you, what the hell do you owe your uncle or your sister or even your children?

 

If my life was the cost to prevent anarchy, I would happily give it to prevent such a catastrophe. I don't think you realize how much the country and its "freedom restricting rules" protect you. If I had to sacrifice my life to save the life of millions I would happily do it. Take the example of the Holocaust, we(USA) lost around 400,000 soldiers. You may look at that number and think holy ******** that's a lot of people dead for a stupid war. Then look at the big picture 11 million civilians, were killed between 1933 and 1945, if we didn't intervene and they continued to do what they want that number could have doubled if not tripled. Its a small price to save the life of more. Giving your time and life to benefit others not just your self is a forgotten gift, your life will become better by making other peoples lives better.

 

I don't see America as a country, a machine, or a robot, I see it as a collection of people who live together in a society guarded not by this machine but by each other. The celebration of the fourth of July is different for everyone, for me its the celebration to remind us that we are in fact free and safe from any threats outside of our control. The people who run the operations are people, civilians just like you and just like me. Often they are faced with tough decisions and forced to make publicly frowned upon decisions, but they do so for our countries benefit and safety as a whole. Do you think they want to listen in on my call and find out that I'm now lactose intolerant? That I can't drink milk or it gives me runs? No, they don't give a ********, they are listening in to help locate and suppress potential threats.

 

What I was trying to explain with South Africa is that it's a dangerous part of the world to live and that many people take for granted what we have. You aren't entitled to live a full life, to get alot of money, find a wife, find a home, settle down and retire. In America you are given this opportunity along with hundreds if not millions of other opportunities that you would have never got in other countries.

 

When you go to a store do you walk in and they hand you a tv, a new stereo system, a yacht, a big ol mansion? No they show you their products and their price. You don't show up at work and they hand you a pay check and walk out. You benefit from them just as much they benefit from you. Me personally I want the world to be better because I was here. If I can make a difference and improve other peoples lives it will in return improve my life. You must give in order to receive.

 

Cheers,

-Zukran

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Where ya from jose? I was afraid everyone who responded was from 'murica, i'm glad thats not the case.

I'm asking myself some tough philosophical questions on ethics on whatnot. A while back I concluded that the most human answer is usually the right one - God made us think this way for a reason, right? Even when we do wrong, we tend to know it. Which is why I argue against utilitarianism, but I'm not too sure about that argument anyway. Certainly nationalism is a very human thing, but should it be? Should we be nationalistic? I think your confusing cultural affinity with nationalism. Should I support AMERICANS because I know them better and share similar values, or should I support AMERICA because- well, why should I? And the US has always supported freedom - just when the masses wanted her too. Appease the masses so the country continues to do well. And almost all americans feel proud and patriotic, I'll best post people posting here do to without realizing it. Maybe. We don't have a homogenous culture, but we have  homogenous government. We all feel a strong affinity to the government (but we shouldn't...I think) despite the giant clash b/w republicans and democrats. Obama as president doesn't stop right wingers from joining the army out of (misguided?) love for the country, for example.

 

I'm from Puerto Rico, i want to stress that my loyalties and affections are for island, not the United States. My country is Puerto Rico.

 

  Take me from example, i love my country deeply and have a strong understanding of my people's culture,history, beliefs, idiosyncrasy and values . My take is that my country is part of my family, like a second mother.

  I think that many of the problems that the US has is because they lack protests or revolutions. People never gather together in order to change  a system with visible flaws. Yeah, sure they do what the masses say they do, but the masses almost never do anything!

Edited by Jose Olmedo

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I'm from Puerto Rico, i want to stress that my loyalties and affections are for island, not the United States. My country is Puerto Rico.

 

  Take me from example, i love my country deeply and have a strong understanding of my people's culture,history, beliefs, idiosyncrasy and values . My take is that my country is part of my family, like a second mother.

  I think that many of the problems that the US has is because they lack protests or revolutions. People never gather together in order to change  a system with visible flaws. Yeah, sure they do what the masses say they do, but the masses almost never do anything!

I dunno, I kind of like our lack of revolutions here. Much more stability. A revolution requires a large extremist population (meaning they are either far-right or far-left). And those people never did well in america :/

Now, you can love your people, your history, your beliefs, your values. But do you love your government? Would you support it, even if they were doing something wrong? And why? Just cause you were born there? I battle with this question myself, because, to be fair, a government is starting to sound a bit like a family :/

 

If my life was the cost to prevent anarchy, I would happily give it to prevent such a catastrophe. I don't think you realize how much the country and its "freedom restricting rules" protect you. If I had to sacrifice my life to save the life of millions I would happily do it. Take the example of the Holocaust, we(USA) lost around 400,000 soldiers. You may look at that number and think holy My Little Pony that's a lot of people dead for a stupid war. Then look at the big picture 11 million civilians, were killed between 1933 and 1945, if we didn't intervene and they continued to do what they want that number could have doubled if not tripled. Its a small price to save the life of more. Giving your time and life to benefit others not just your self is a forgotten gift, your life will become better by making other peoples lives better.

 

I don't see America as a country, a machine, or a robot, I see it as a collection of people who live together in a society guarded not by this machine but by each other. The celebration of the fourth of July is different for everyone, for me its the celebration to remind us that we are in fact free and safe from any threats outside of our control. The people who run the operations are people, civilians just like you and just like me. Often they are faced with tough decisions and forced to make publicly frowned upon decisions, but they do so for our countries benefit and safety as a whole. Do you think they want to listen in on my call and find out that I'm now lactose intolerant? That I can't drink milk or it gives me runs? No, they don't give a My Little Pony, they are listening in to help locate and suppress potential threats.

 

What I was trying to explain with South Africa is that it's a dangerous part of the world to live and that many people take for granted what we have. You aren't entitled to live a full life, to get alot of money, find a wife, find a home, settle down and retire. In America you are given this opportunity along with hundreds if not millions of other opportunities that you would have never got in other countries.

 

When you go to a store do you walk in and they hand you a tv, a new stereo system, a yacht, a big ol mansion? No they show you their products and their price. You don't show up at work and they hand you a pay check and walk out. You benefit from them just as much they benefit from you. Me personally I want the world to be better because I was here. If I can make a difference and improve other peoples lives it will in return improve my life. You must give in order to receive.

 

Cheers,

-Zukran

Ack, your making it so americanized. I'm not saying it's wrong to give your life for a good cause. But what is a good cause? Preventing the holocaust worse, sure. Iraq war? Debatable. Would you fight for the US in the event of a war you disagreed with? I wouldn't. Why? Because I don't care for this country, I care for people. Real people. Real lives. Not a machine's existence. America promotes freedoms, it does, and it's great for it. It's better to me then any country in the world would be, arguably. And America is run by people I know. People who do everything possible to better this country. At the expense of others. Every dollar america's economy gains is a dollar some other country loses. Every person that gets freedom here is a person that costs another country a job. Every gain we make is a loss to another country, and it is very intentional and it is very deliberate. It's all a giant game. Appease when you need to. betray when you need to. Ally when you need to. Backstab when it befits you. That's what America is. A game player. helping itself. helpings its people. And no one else. Which is why I have trouble with this whole nationalism thing. The people in charge of this country love this country. And they love it so much other countries suffer from it. Some gain from it too, but in the end it's America our government wants to do best. Which, in hand, makes other countries do worse. Zero-sum game.

And are you saying that people in south africa shouldn't be nationalistic? Not everything is about 'murica here. We can celebrate our freedoms, but I'm hesitant to celebrate the demise of teh world at tehe expense of america, simply because I live here. I choose my loyalty to the world above my loyalty to some artificial boundary I grew up in.

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Jose, thats due to us breeding a lazy and self indulgent lifestyle.

People wont fight too hard against the hand that feeds them.

(A reference to all those, myself included, who get some form of government benefit)

Course, I dont NEED anything from the government, so I protest it often. I have a nice big hand sewn communist flag. Sometimes I fly it. On special occasions I litterally wear it out in public.

(Im not a communist, but something close. More people can identify and know communism better than any symbols from my real ideas)

Then agaian, government benefits is pretty much communist anyway....

Well now Im just going in circles....

Im a Libertarian Socialist. Look it up....

:P

 

But yeah, most Americans wont protest anything, mostly because we actually do have it pretty good here. 

We really have nothing to protest in comparison to the majority of the world. We are a land of docile sheep. You dont see your dog protesting his lack of going to the park, because as long as you feed him, he dont much care.

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Im a Libertarian Socialist. Look it up....

NOAM CHOMSKY FTW. He's the only one that seems to agree that our media is jacked up. like lujjit. But every time I google liebrtarian socialist, I get more and more confused.

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The ideals kinda differ from person to person, and Ive personally had alot of debate about it. In the end, Im not "exactly" a libertarian socialist, but its the closest label Ive found to my ideas.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Socialism

 

Or Anarchist Communism, which I used to consider myself as a teenager:

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Communism

 

But in the end, its just a label...

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The ideals kinda differ from person to person, and Ive personally had alot of debate about it. In the end, Im not "exactly" a libertarian socialist, but its the closest label Ive found to my ideas.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Socialism

Or Anarchist Communism, which I used to consider myself as a teenager:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Communism

But in the end, its just a label...

sounds extremely similar, 'cept the latter is a bit more anti government. but you're right, it's just a label

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So I voted your begining statement down, not because of your lack of patriotism, or criticism of America. I criticize the US government all the time, and I like in later statements that you care about the people, which is more important in some respects. But because you showed a whole hearted belief in the ignorant idea of a "Zero-Sum Game". Seldom has the prospering of one nation been the direct result of another becoming poorer. There are just so many ways I can explain how it isn't a Zero Sum game.

 

Do you honestly think that the Increased Trade Between the US and China has made China poorer. A country that has seen millions rise out of poverty and a steadily increasing standard of living. I'm not saying it's perfect, but things have certainly improved there. The idea a dollar gained here is a dollar lost somewhere else is silly. First of all money is simply an IOU especially considering these days it isn't even backed by anything. It is a tool to facilitate the trading of what is really important goods and service. The US gets what ever goods were buying from the Chinese and the Chinese get dollars that they can use to buy goods of their own and grow their own economy. All the member nations of North American Free Trade Agreement have only done better since it's inception and the country that has benefited by far the most is the poorest Mexico. Mexico has prospered so much that more Mexican left the US for Mexico than the other way around. I will give that one thing we do that short hands some of our trade partners is how we print so much money and devalues the dollars we trade, but this practice also hurts American's by devaluing our saving's and wages and adversally affects our economy.

 

Another look at why the "Zero Sum" idea is total bullshit. Say we have a town it has say ten pounds of silver, a villager goes into a mine and digs up another pound. Isn't the town now a pound of silver richer adding to the overall sum? Another one is lets say a town grows apples. They grow a thousand apples every year. They decide to plant ten more tree's and now have 1,500 apples a year. Expand the premise one town mines iron, another cuts lumber, and the third has skilled craftsmen and blacksmiths. If you combine these three they can produce tools that improve everyone elses lives.

 

We also have to account for the enumerable Technological advancement throughout history. Go back 50 years, Television was brand new and in black and white, they had no cellphones let alone smart phones, they had no Personal Computers, and especailly no internet. Cars weren't as nice, or lasted as long, Small Pox and Polio were still quite prevalent, medical care certainly wasn't as good. I could go back another 50 years and name all the inventions they didn't have then. Technology constantly adds to the sum.

 

If the world was a zero sum game, how can you honestly explain how in the last 10 thousand years we went from 7 million Hunter Gatherers, living in caves, hunting are food, where 15% would die from violence and the average life expectancy was 30. To having a global population of 7 billion, with the average standard of living increasingly rising. Where some societies have more wealth in a single city than that of all those 7 million hunter gatherers time hundred combined. How can you have the economic conditions of poorer regions like South America, Africa, and Asia clearly improving while the developing countries.

 

And how do Americans gain Freedom at the expense of the Freedom of others? Please explain?

 

Usually when one country hurts another it seldom has a net gain. It would really have to pull things off really well and the plan would have to span a very short period. Usually the gain isn't so much existing wealth, but potential wealth in land, but that is really a long term process. For example the United States didn't gain a lot of wealth expanding Westward, but many saw the potential wealth to be gained by controlling these lands. Meaning farmland and mines were there and the resources weren't being exploited, but there was a lot potential for new wealth the Native Americans and Mexico wern't taking advantage of and under the Free Market system of America what is now the US has largely prospered and grown and provided many revolutionary technological advancements and in many respects this same system has also benefited the very groups that were initially harmed like Naitve Americans and Mexico.

 

King lot's of people can tell you that the media is far from perfect, not just Noam Chomsky. I'll admit I'm not too savvy on his works to really critique it directly, but from what I've heard he's just a linguistics Professor who decided to start talking about History and Socio Economic issues like he was an expert in those fields with out really doing a lot of in depth studying, or research on the issues.

 

Socialist Libertarianism is something I spent a decent amount of time researching, mostly so I could debate one. I'm a bit tuckered out now so I'm going to half ass this, but here are my issues with it. It's a philosophy that doesn't settle the issue of resource conflict and management and espouse a system of shared commons. The problem is you end up with what is well known as the Tragedy of commons where you have shared property, but not shared responsibility. Oh wait I'm thinking of Socialist Anarchy. Nevermind. I need to do some more reading, tomorrow, after some sleep.

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They are simmaler. In fact, many libertarian socialists also consider themselves anarchist socialists and vice versa, where as others disagree, saying there is a ditinction between the two.

In the end, the only real difference is what King said.

Shaman, Ill be the first to agree. Every example of libertarian/anarchist socialism has failed, but usually because of outside influence.

Im not entirely anti government, but I like my government small.

Its not a perfect system, but Im a firm believer that all systems will eventually fail anyway.

Id rather die free than live imprisoned.

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Jose, thats due to us breeding a lazy and self indulgent lifestyle.
People wont fight too hard against the hand that feeds them.
(A reference to all those, myself included, who get some form of government benefit)
Course, I dont NEED anything from the government, so I protest it often. I have a nice big hand sewn communist flag. Sometimes I fly it. On special occasions I litterally wear it out in public.
(Im not a communist, but something close. More people can identify and know communism better than any symbols from my real ideas)
Then agaian, government benefits is pretty much communist anyway....
Well now Im just going in circles....
Im a Libertarian Socialist. Look it up....
:P
 
But yeah, most Americans wont protest anything, mostly because we actually do have it pretty good here. 
We really have nothing to protest in comparison to the majority of the world. We are a land of docile sheep. You dont see your dog protesting his lack of going to the park, because as long as you feed him, he dont much care.

 

 

 That happen in Puerto Rico, in the past although people were poor, they didn't loss themselves. They always had a sense of identity and humanity, family and community were above personal benefits. Now, a few decades of force Americanization, everyone is willing to sell out their country in exchange for a few more bucks. Nobody wants to work, they only take coupons because the government give up so many benefits. This is so american, if you protest your a communist. 

 I am socialist, i not gonna give up benefits for people who are just taking advantages but neither i am going to ignore the needs of people. Many American are in genuine need for economical aid, In my island that not necessarily truth, more than half of those who take government aid are taking advantages of it. 

It is a stretch to call all of the smart people socialist or at least left-leaning?

 

I mean many of the world most important politicians has been socialist, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela,etc. They  do care more about the people and what they should be entitled too than most conservatives and even liberals( weak people) will ever do. 

 

Capitalism is so mundane, it simply a another form of slavery.

Edited by Jose Olmedo

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I dunno, I kind of like our lack of revolutions here. Much more stability. A revolution requires a large extremist population (meaning they are either far-right or far-left). And those people never did well in america :/

Now, you can love your people, your history, your beliefs, your values. But do you love your government? Would you support it, even if they were doing something wrong? And why? Just cause you were born there? I battle with this question myself, because, to be fair, a government is starting to sound a bit like a family :/

 

Ack, your making it so americanized. I'm not saying it's wrong to give your life for a good cause. But what is a good cause? Preventing the holocaust worse, sure. Iraq war? Debatable. Would you fight for the US in the event of a war you disagreed with? I wouldn't. Why? Because I don't care for this country, I care for people. Real people. Real lives. Not a machine's existence. America promotes freedoms, it does, and it's great for it. It's better to me then any country in the world would be, arguably. And America is run by people I know. People who do everything possible to better this country. At the expense of others. Every dollar america's economy gains is a dollar some other country loses. Every person that gets freedom here is a person that costs another country a job. Every gain we make is a loss to another country, and it is very intentional and it is very deliberate. It's all a giant game. Appease when you need to. betray when you need to. Ally when you need to. Backstab when it befits you. That's what America is. A game player. helping itself. helpings its people. And no one else. Which is why I have trouble with this whole nationalism thing. The people in charge of this country love this country. And they love it so much other countries suffer from it. Some gain from it too, but in the end it's America our government wants to do best. Which, in hand, makes other countries do worse. Zero-sum game.

And are you saying that people in south africa shouldn't be nationalistic? Not everything is about 'murica here. We can celebrate our freedoms, but I'm hesitant to celebrate the demise of teh world at tehe expense of america, simply because I live here. I choose my loyalty to the world above my loyalty to some artificial boundary I grew up in.

Americanized? That seems to be who everyone's hating on right now, so its only logical to give 'murica examples...

I would not fight a war that I disagreed with. But guess what, not everyone has the same opinion. USA has 319 million people all with different views on everything. So while I may not fight a war because I didn't believe in the cause, I can assure you there will be hundreds if not thousands lining up who do believe in that very cause. If say Russia invaded the United States and was on the verge of winning, and when they win they would rape and enslave all americans, would you sit by and wait to be enslaved? Or would you fight to protect your self, your family, friends and the rest of the USA?

 

Please tell me more about how were stealing money from other countries when we export around $100 billion to china while we import almost $400 billion to us. Thats a $300 billion deficit a YEAR. You know what maybe you're right looking at it from Chinas perspective... They're costing us jobs, thats evil! They should shouldn't be trying to better their country! They should be living in the slums! (Really?)

 

Of course the government wants to do whats best for America or what ever nation, if they didn't then we would be one shitty country. I could see it now, President Obama running around with money falling out of his pockets screaming, "Take it! Take our money! We don't want it! We want to live awful, starve and die from disease!"

 

People in South Africa can be nationalistic, more power to them. Don't really know where thats going.

 

-Zukran

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Shaman, a nation exists only to better itself and no one else. China is a country near equal footing with the US, but do you think the trades US makes with, say, Ghana are equally beneficial to both countries? The US uses whatever leverage it can to make the deal as much to their benefit. It's a country, and such acts only in self-interest. By zero sum game, I'm not saying we don't progress, but the political, economic, and social power of a country in relation to other countries is always at a a balance. And I don't know much about Noam Chomsky, but he's one of the most well known intellectuals in the world, not just "some guy" who claims to know about things...

 

They are simmaler. In fact, many libertarian socialists also consider themselves anarchist socialists and vice versa, where as others disagree, saying there is a ditinction between the two.

In the end, the only real difference is what King said.

Shaman, Ill be the first to agree. Every example of libertarian/anarchist socialism has failed, but usually because of outside influence.

Im not entirely anti government, but I like my government small.

Its not a perfect system, but Im a firm believer that all systems will eventually fail anyway.

Id rather die free than live imprisoned.

Your weird :P

 

 That happen in Puerto Rico, in the past although people were poor, they didn't loss themselves. They always had a sense of identity and humanity, family and community were above personal benefits. Now, a few decades of force Americanization, everyone is willing to sell out their country in exchange for a few more bucks. Nobody wants to work, they only take coupons because the government give up so many benefits. This is so american, if you protest your a communist. 

 I am socialist, i not gonna give up benefits for people who are just taking advantages but neither i am going to ignore the needs of people. Many American are in genuine need for economical aid, In my island that not necessarily truth, more than half of those who take government aid are taking advantages of it. 


It is a stretch to call all of the smart people socialist or at least left-leaning?

 

I mean many of the world most important politicians has been socialist, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela,etc. They  do care more about the people and what they should be entitled too than most conservatives and even liberals( weak people) will ever do. 

 

Capitalism is so mundane, it simply a another form of slavery.

I read some study once showing a significant number of ultra smart (like IQ 180+) being libertarian, but idk. Most ACADEMICS are liberal though.

 

Americanized? That seems to be who everyone's hating on right now, so its only logical to give 'murica examples...

I would not fight a war that I disagreed with. But guess what, not everyone has the same opinion. USA has 319 million people all with different views on everything. So while I may not fight a war because I didn't believe in the cause, I can assure you there will be hundreds if not thousands lining up who do believe in that very cause. If say Russia invaded the United States and was on the verge of winning, and when they win they would rape and enslave all americans, would you sit by and wait to be enslaved? Or would you fight to protect your self, your family, friends and the rest of the USA?

 

Please tell me more about how were stealing money from other countries when we export around $100 billion to china while we import almost $400 billion to us. Thats a $300 billion deficit a YEAR. You know what maybe you're right looking at it from Chinas perspective... They're costing us jobs, thats evil! They should shouldn't be trying to better their country! They should be living in the slums! (Really?)

 

Of course the government wants to do whats best for America or what ever nation, if they didn't then we would be one shitty country. I could see it now, President Obama running around with money falling out of his pockets screaming, "Take it! Take our money! We don't want it! We want to live awful, starve and die from disease!"

 

People in South Africa can be nationalistic, more power to them. Don't really know where thats going.

 

-Zukran

Alright, let me rephrase the question. Why do we serve the United States?

Now, why would someone serve South Africa? You might say we would serve the US for freedoms/whatever, but then for what reason would a south african serve south africa? I believe that people serve their respective nations for no more reason then the fact they are told to do so. And yes, America would be a shitty country if it didn't help itself. And plenty of other countries would not be shitty if we didn't help ourselves.

 

And do you honestly think America is hurting itself when it makes deal with China? Why would America want to trade with China if it didn't benefit america? Numbers aren't everything. Also, read what I said up top about zero sum

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I figured this was a fitting day to talk about this, lol.

 

 

Over the last few months I came to an extraordinary revelation: I don't give two shits about America. Not because of some war or the other or because of what America has done or anything, but because I don't see why I should give two shits about America. I mean, I see all these people devoting their lives to their country, defending it in arguments, waving around their respective flags as if flags mean anything at all. But why? What affinity do we really have to the nation we are born in, or the one we suddenly tie ourselves too through immigration or whatever. What part of our human psyche causes us to be so stupid as to want to die for some giant machine that exists only to better itself at the expense of other giant machines (these machines are countries in case you didn't notice). Why the hell did Obama choose to waste 10 years of his life with a frikkin 20 hour work day? What the hell does he owe to the US, just like anyone. All he's doing is trying to get America better and other countries worse at the expense (if you don't understand, google zero sum game, but I think you should understand).

 

Once again, this is not a rage against America or any country for that matter. This is a rage against something I don't quite understand. I don't understand this idiotic patriotism people have for something that is no more than a machine. I don't understand this nationalistic pride people feel that does nothing but cause violence and class warfare (between nations!). Cultural affinity is something different, but allegiance to a state, as if that state is somehow in charge of that cultural affinity is stupid. Cultural affinity has good outcomes, but I fail to see the same of nationalism. I see nothing more than nationalism being stupidity. When I tell this to people, they often agree with me and the next second they're screaming 'MURICA or waving flags around like they just don't care. Sometimes I feel like no one understands the irony of it all, and I wanted to know what you guys thought.

 

 

proof I care about this issue is that I actually spelled things right with only one spell check fix. LOL

 

There is no reason why you should give two shits about your country. It really depends on how much you feel you have given to your or recieved from your country and how much you identify with its ideals, policies, history.

 

I mean, theres no real reason why you should give a damn about anything, but not giving a damn about everything gets boring after a while.

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