Ahovking

The Invisible Hand (Greed is Good)

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Greed is Good


Let’s take an inventor, Thomas, who has come up with an idea for a new type of light bulb – one that is more efficient, longer-lasting and brighter than the rest. He has done so to serve his own self-interest, in the hope of making himself rich, and perhaps famous. The by-product will be to benefit society as a whole, by creating jobs for those who will make the bulbs and enhancing the lives (and living rooms) of those who buy them. If there had been no demand for the light bulb, no one would have paid Thomas for it, and the invisible hand would have, in effect, slapped him down for making such a mistake.

Similarly, once Thomas is in business, others may see him making money and attempt to outdo him by devising similar light bulbs that are brighter and better. They too start getting rich. However, the invisible hand never sleeps. Thomas starts undercutting his competitors so as to ensure he keeps selling the most. Delighted customers benefit from even cheaper light bulbs.

Similarly, once Thomas is in business, others may see him making money and attempt to outdo him by devising similar light bulbs that are brighter and better. They too start getting rich. However, the invisible hand never sleeps. Thomas starts undercutting his competitors so as to ensure he keeps selling the most. Delighted customers benefit from even cheaper light bulbs. 

So is Greed really....Good? 

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You basically just described the idea of capitalism. And no, greed is not good.

Why isn't it good, Its Thomas greed to making himself rich, and perhaps famous that he come up with an idea for a new type of light bulb – one that is more efficient, longer-lasting and brighter than the rest, which in the end benefits society as a whole?

And then others may see him making money and attempt to outdo him by devising similar light bulbs that are brighter and better. They too start getting rich. However. Thomas starts undercutting his competitors so as to ensure he keeps selling the most. Delighted customers benefit from even cheaper light bulbs. 

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Greed isn't good. By that logic, its good to raise my prices because Im greedy. Or steal something. Or not pay my employees what they deserve. Which isn't good, it just pisses people off.

Working hard to make a living is good. Inventing a great idea that benefits people is good.

Being greedy or greed in general is never good.

Capitalism has this issue. Last year in the US, 95% of American income went to the top 1%. That is NOT good.

America is becoming a lot like Russia in that sense. A shrinking middle class and a concentration of wealth. All because of greed.

Granted, socialism has the opposite flaw and creates a lack of incentive.

Its OK to make money. Bit not to be greedy.

"Keep filling your bowl, and it will spill over.

Keep sharpening you knife and it will blunt.

Keep hoarding gold in your house and you will be robbed.

Keep seeking approval and you will be chained.

The Great Integrity leads to actualization, never overfulfillment."

So the question is, what happens when a nation becomes like Russia, where the wealth is so concentrated, there is no middle class and the poor are being squeeze dried of their cash daily? Is this good?

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Greed isn't good. By that logic, its good to raise my prices because Im greedy. Or steal something. Or not pay my employees what they deserve. Which isn't good, it just pisses people off.

Working hard to make a living is good. Inventing a great idea that benefits people is good.

Being greedy or greed in general is never good.

Capitalism has this issue. Last year in the US, 95% of American income went to the top 1%. That is NOT good.

America is becoming a lot like Russia in that sense. A shrinking middle class and a concentration of wealth. All because of greed.

Granted, socialism has the opposite flaw and creates a lack of incentive.

Its OK to make money. Bit not to be greedy.

"Keep filling your bowl, and it will spill over.

Keep sharpening you knife and it will blunt.

Keep hoarding gold in your house and you will be robbed.

Keep seeking approval and you will be chained.

The Great Integrity leads to actualization, never overfulfillment."

So the question is, what happens when a nation becomes like Russia, where the wealth is so concentrated, there is no middle class and the poor are being squeeze dried of their cash daily? Is this good?

Slow down there, its not good raise your prices because it means your customers will leave you for your competitors. Because of greed your forced to lower prices as much as possible whole still earning revenue while maintaining the most customers as possible... because of greed your have to be competitive, if your just rise prices you'll end up losing money. 

Why isn't it good? What makes a worker, working in mac's deserve the same amount as a doctor or a CEO? Capitalism is a system that rewards individuals' hard work and entrepreneurship, it is hardly surprising that some will be richer than others. 

 

My question is Capitalism in the past 150 years turn the US from a poor, small British colony into a economical and financial powerhouse with little to no government interventions needed... but since 1900s when the US began to intervention financially and economically, things seem to have gone wrong, it hardly seems right blaming capitalism a system that has worked so well in the past 150 years. To me at lest, everything seems to have gone wrong when we started adding social programs (socialist programs).

 

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lol. No. The problem in America is that its becoming like Russia. Were talking about the most conservative nation on earth. Another thing, what works in one nation, doesn't work in every nation.

Government intervention didn't create the global recession. Government intervention isn't concentrating Americas wealth. Its the top income earners in America that are causing those problems.

Yes, you have to lower prices to be competitive, but not if you have a patent on your product.

And not everyone likes to lower prices to be competitive. In fact, sometimes the opposite happens, like Sony placing a fee on PSN because Microsoft is still hot competition with its fee for XBox live. They don't NEED those extra revenue and I highly doubt they're using to pay their employees better wages. They're just greedy.

Not to mention, I have no problem with people becoming rich. But there are people out there who are unreasonably rich, people who never did anything to earn a dime and are rich, and people who have more than they ever need, yet keep stuffing their fat mouths with cash because they're so corrupted by currency they think Thats what life is.

Such people are sickening to me.

So if greed is so good, how about all these charities that only donate an insignificant fraction of donations to the actual cause, then pay their employees 5 figure wages. Is that good?

Clearly, no.

Again, working hard to make a living is good. But so is shedding your excess wealth to help those who need it. Being greedy is not good.

If I have a friend in desperate need of something, and I refuse to give ot to him even though I have plenty more than I need, this is good?

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lol. No. The problem in America is that its becoming like Russia. Were talking about the most conservative nation on earth. Another thing, what works in one nation, doesn't work in every nation.

Government intervention didn't create the global recession. Government intervention isn't concentrating Americas wealth. Its the top income earners in America that are causing those problems.

Yes, you have to lower prices to be competitive, but not if you have a patent on your product.

And not everyone likes to lower prices to be competitive. In fact, sometimes the opposite happens, like Sony placing a fee on PSN because Microsoft is still hot competition with its fee for XBox live. They don't NEED those extra revenue and I highly doubt they're using to pay their employees better wages. They're just greedy.

Not to mention, I have no problem with people becoming rich. But there are people out there who are unreasonably rich, people who never did anything to earn a dime and are rich, and people who have more than they ever need, yet keep stuffing their fat mouths with cash because they're so corrupted by currency they think Thats what life is.

Such people are sickening to me.

So if greed is so good, how about all these charities that only donate an insignificant fraction of donations to the actual cause, then pay their employees 5 figure wages. Is that good?

Clearly, no.

Again, working hard to make a living is good. But so is shedding your excess wealth to help those who need it. Being greedy is not good.

If I have a friend in desperate need of something, and I refuse to give ot to him even though I have plenty more than I need, this is good?

Interesting how is the US becoming like Russia?

Now the GFC: The financial crisis was triggered by a complex interplay of policies (Government intervention) that encouraged home ownership, providing easier access to loans for (lending) borrowers, overvaluation of bundled sub-prime mortgages based on the theory that housing prices would continue to escalate, questionable trading practices on behalf of both buyers and sellers, compensation structures that prioritize short-term deal flow over long-term value creation, and a lack of adequate capital holdings from banks and insurance companies to back the financial commitments they were making.

Whos at fault here are the banks and the Government not the 1%. Government use its power to introduce policies encouraged home ownership, which lead to the banks overvaluation of bundled sub-prime mortgages based on the theory that housing prices would continue to escalate, questionable trading practices on behalf of both buyers and sellers, etc.

Nothing is stopping you Fox for becoming that 1%, wealth is created not 'recycled', nothing is stopping your coming up with a great idea selling that idea, investing your earnings and becoming a very wealthy person, anyone can do this. Let the rich have their money, its up to you not them to created your own wealth.

Could you please mention a few names of people never did anything to earn a dime and are rich

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Could you please mention a few names of people never did anything to earn a dime and are rich

Lindsey Stirling is the first to mind, as well as any other kid to inherit a fortune for nothing.

Nothing is stopping me from becoming rich..... Except the people who already are.....

Im not saying they keep me down intentionally. Thats just how it works. Not everyone can be rich. Only a select few can. Taking money from somebody is taking money from somebody. And if you have more money than most, that process becomes easier and easier because you have the resources to make it so. Thus, wealth becomes concentrated. Thats the problem with capitalism.

And in the end, we have the banks to blame for the global recession and nobody else. They should have never taken such a gamble. But they did.... You know why? Because of greed.

(Then they get a free pass. No loss to them. Too bad we all had to pick up the tab).

And that sir, is why greed is bad.

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Lindsey Stirling is the first to mind, as well as any other kid to inherit a fortune for nothing.

Nothing is stopping me from becoming rich..... Except the people who already are.....

Im not saying they keep me down intentionally. Thats just how it works. Not everyone can be rich. Only a select few can. Taking money from somebody is taking money from somebody. And if you have more money than most, that process becomes easier and easier because you have the resources to make it so. Thus, wealth becomes concentrated. Thats the problem with capitalism.

And in the end, we have the banks to blame for the global recession and nobody else. They should have never taken such a gamble. But they did.... You know why? Because of greed.

(Then they get a free pass. No loss to them. Too bad we all had to pick up the tab).

And that sir, is why greed is bad.

So whats stopping you, write a great book? or created a small business and slowly grow it into a national wide business, or start investing in stocks? all you need is a $50

And making money has nothing to do about how much money you have, my father was born dirt poor, yet it made more than 5 successful business and he didn't even Finnish the 10th grade. 

Dont blame the 1% or capitalism because your too lazy to become rich, if my dad who couldn't even Finnish school could do it, you can too and for me, im going to start investing in stocks and and soon start up my own business, and i currently working at Mac's 

Ok blame the banks for overvaluation of bundled sub-prime mortgages but why not government and its part in encouraging the banks thought policies attempted encouraged home ownership. 

Your blaming the dog for pooping on your lawn yet completely ignore the owner who lead him onto your lawn. 

Edited by Ahovking

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Greed is Good

Let’s take an inventor, Thomas, who has come up with an idea for a new type of light bulb – one that is more efficient, longer-lasting and brighter than the rest.
Yay, innovation.

He has done so to serve his own self-interest, in the hope of making himself rich, and perhaps famous. The by-product will be to benefit society as a whole, by creating jobs for those who will make the bulbs and enhancing the lives (and living rooms) of those who buy them. If there had been no demand for the light bulb, no one would have paid Thomas for it, and the invisible hand would have, in effect, slapped him down for making such a mistake.

You say this like lack of demand is the only thing that would "slapped him down"

Similarly, once Thomas is in business, others may see him making money and attempt to outdo him by devising similar light bulbs that are brighter and better. They too start getting rich. However, the invisible hand never sleeps. Thomas starts undercutting his competitors so as to ensure he keeps selling the most. Delighted customers benefit from even cheaper light bulbs.

And workers are upset because they get less and less and can't even buy the their own light bulbs.

So is Greed really....Good?

No, Greed isn't good. Innovation is good. Competition can be good. But greed? Greed isn't good.

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all you need is a $50

If that were true, poverty wouldnt exist and wed all be rich.

my father was born dirt poor, yet it made more than 5 successful business and he didn't even Finnish the 10th grade. 

Success in modern times is not as easy. In fact, the competition increases every day. These are the joys of an ever increasing world population.

Dont blame the 1% or capitalism because your too lazy to become rich

If working hard = getting rich, Im a quadrillionaire. Listen, Im 23 and I don't give even the slightest ******** about money. In fact, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to be rich. Sure, there's a few toys that would be fun to own, but I don't care about materialism. Objects are just objects. Life is all about the experience for me. If somebody handed me a million dollars, I honestly wouldn't know what to do with it other than spend it other people until I was poor again. I mean, most of the money I've ever made has gone to other people. I really only use what I need. Whenever I have excess money I seriously don't know what to do with it, because Im perfectly content with what I have.

I don't understand how other people, more fortunate than I, can't be.

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If that were true, poverty wouldnt exist and wed all be rich.

Thats the point we all can be, nothing is stopping us, its so easy. I strongly recommend you look into it.

Its capitalism 101, its why per capita people in the US (historically) have been so much wealthier, even compared to the USSR, Americans were still far more wealthy per capita, per capita there was more small business paying higher wages, less muti-national corporations etc.

Its all up to the individual,  

 

Success in modern times is not as easy. In fact, the competition increases every day. These are the joys of an ever increasing world population.

The problem is the only competition is coming from big business, and unions, workers and small business (which are often the more worker friendly) are becoming increasingly unable to compete. Laws like minimum wages and other act design to help regulate business and the economy are crippling small business, and never seems to harm big businesses. Size of population has no effect on competition. Russia today is far more competitive than the USSR despite having a population decline lasing 20 some years.

 

If working hard = getting rich, Im a quadrillionaire. Listen, Im 23 and I don't give even the slightest ******** about money. In fact, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to be rich. Sure, there's a few toys that would be fun to own, but I don't care about materialism. Objects are just objects. Life is all about the experience for me. If somebody handed me a million dollars, I honestly wouldn't know what to do with it other than spend it other people until I was poor again. I mean, most of the money I've ever made has gone to other people. I really only use what I need. Whenever I have excess money I seriously don't know what to do with it, because Im perfectly content with what I have.

I don't understand how other people, more fortunate than I, can't be.

Im the compete opponent , i want to be wealthy, i work overtime almost every week, i push for more and more work so i get payed more overtime and maybe a promotion, i volunteer when i have the time to charity to help the poor to rise my public profile, and at university i'm studying hard so i can achieve a great paying job, and help a lot of people... at the same time when my business launches next year ill be hiring 3 employees who i should be able to pay well above minimum wage. 

I dare to say i contribute more to society than you, all because i'm driven my greed. 

And workers are upset because they get less and less and can't even buy the their own light bulbs.

What happens then is, they can either unionize because of their own greed, leave to get a job at a competitors store, resulting in you losing a experienced and competent employee, or the employee leaves to creates his own light bulbs and becomes a competitors themselves.

 

No, Greed isn't good. Innovation is good. Competition can be good. But greed? Greed isn't good. 

I agree, Innovation is good. Competition is good. but why not greed, i'm working hard because one day i want to be wealthy, this is making me work harder at work harder and UNI, all because of my greed, 

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What happens then is, they can either unionize because of their own greed,

Desiring acceptable life competitions isn't greed.

leave to get a job at a competitors store,

who would also pay horrible wages because they are greedy.

resulting in you losing a experienced and competent employee,

who in the modern world can be replaced with a machine.

or the employee leaves to creates his own light bulbs and becomes a competitors themselves.

 Don't make me laugh.

I agree, Innovation is good. Competition is good. but why not greed, i'm working hard because one day i want to be wealthy, this is making me work harder at work harder and UNI, all because of my greed,

Because in your quest to obtain and hoard your wealth you absolutely destroy those in your way.

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Desiring acceptable life competitions isn't greed.

No, well that's right... but every worker in Australia is living in a very acceptable life condition, yet still demands wage increase, It has now gone passed wanting to live in acceptable life condition.. greed has taken over.

 

who would also pay horrible wages because they are greedy.

Why pay horrible wages? workers wont work as hard as they can, you wont attract the skilled and efficient emplyees who could save you far more money in the long run and you run the risk of them leaving for a better paying job.   

 

Because in your quest to obtain and hoard your wealth you absolutely destroy those in your way.

Who's lives would i be destroying? 

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No, well that's right... but every worker in Australia is living in a very acceptable life condition, yet still demands wage increase, It has now gone passed wanting to live in acceptable life condition.. greed has taken over.

Source?

 

Why pay horrible wages?

Sovp you can pocket more money.

workers wont work as hard as they can, you wont attract the skilled and efficient emplyees who could save you far more money in the long run and you run the risk of them leaving for a better paying job.  

you say this like skilled workers are highly needed.

 

Who's lives would i be destroying? 

Your competition, your worker's and general society. You see as you accumulate more and more money, less and less money is around for the rest of us.

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Source?

 

Blue-collar workers earn an average $1229 a week in Australia, yet Unions like The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union (CFMEU) back in 2006 demanded wage increase citing they were being under payed and that for their work they are entitled to higher wages.

 

Sovp you can pocket more money.

 

But that's counter productive? honesty Ecos and business owners dont pocket lots of money and try and screw the worker, thats  counter productive, you want a well payed work force that works well, fast and effective and who will be loyal to you and your business...  screw the worker will make them less effective, work slower and wont be very loyal to you and your business, in the end you'll earn more paying workers high wages (to a point) than screwing them with low wages. 

 

you say this like skilled workers are highly needed.

skilled/experienced workers are always preferred over inexperienced workers. If i owned a business i would want the best of the best, not the second best. And as i said before skilled/experienced workers could save you time and money while inexperienced workers could take time to train and etc. 

 

Your competition, your worker's and general society. You see as you accumulate more and more money, less and less money is around for the rest of us.

hold on.. So you think wealth is like gold, there is only so much of it?

Because that's wrong, Our nations economy grows because as our population increase more people create wealth (the demand from the market dictates how much the US should print dollars) it doesn't matter if the 1% accumulate more and more money, you can do the same its called a savings account, it doesn't change that more and more people are creating wealth.

 

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Thats the point we all can be, nothing is stopping us, its so easy. I strongly recommend you look into it.

No. Capitalism requires the rich, the poor, and the middle class to properly function. It literally requires these by its very nature. If everyone were equal, it would be communism.

See unfortunately, like it or not, capitalism IS designed to keep the majority down. If everyone was rich we wouldn't need jobs.

Size of population has no effect on competition. Russia today is far more competitive than the USSR despite having a population decline lasing 20 some years.

Yes it does. More people = more people competing.

And of course they are. Theyre not socialist any more.

I dare to say i contribute more to society than you, all because i'm driven my greed.

Whoa. Calm down there. You know nothing of my contributions to society. So I don't have a business. I don't hand out pay checks and create jobs. But I certainly think I contribute my share.

You see, IDC how rich you become. If that is your goal in life so be it. I personally don't care for wealth. I refuse to live my life based on it. Reason being:

When Im laying on my death bed, money, houses, cars, wealth. This will amount to nothing. Meaningless junk IMHO. What IS going to mean something is the experiences I had while I had my experience. And I believe wealth and competition has a way of blinding people and preventing them from that peace of mind.

Besides, being on the poor end forces me to be more creative in creating my experiences, rather than just buying generic experiences.

Again, IDC how wealthy you are in life. As long as you return your fare share to the community. You may have earned it, but not without the community who made it happen.

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Blue-collar workers earn an average $1229 a week in Australia, yet Unions like The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union (CFMEU) back in 2006 demanded wage increase citing they were being under payed and that for their work they are entitled to higher wages.

I'm sorry but I'm not in Australia. Where are you getting this information?

 

 

But that's counter productive? honesty Ecos and business owners dont pocket lots of money and try and screw the worker, thats  counter productive, you want a well payed work force that works well, fast and effective and who will be loyal to you and your business...  screw the worker will make them less effective, work slower and wont be very loyal to you and your business, in the end you'll earn more paying workers high wages (to a point) than screwing them with low wages. 

 

Which is why most factory workers make a decent wage. Oh wait..

skilled/experienced workers are always preferred over inexperienced workers.

That may have been true when only experienced works could do ********, but not today. A low wage inexperienced worker and a machine is more valuable than a high wage worker.

If i owned a business i would want the best of the best, not the second best.

And you'd be driven in to the ground because your greedy competitors would pay lower wages than you and sell their products cheaper.

And as i said before skilled/experienced workers could save you time and money while inexperienced workers could take time to train and etc. 

You'd be also required to pay more for the experienced workers for a longer period of time than the unskilled worker.

 

hold on.. So you think wealth is like gold, there is only so much of it?

Because that's wrong, Our nations economy grows because as our population increase more people create wealth (the demand from the market dictates how much the US should print dollars) it doesn't matter if the 1% accumulate more and more money, you can do the same its called a savings account, it doesn't change that more and more people are creating wealth.

What? If the 1% accumulate more wealth (wealth not money), then the 99% have less wealth. It doesn't matter how much money they have, because as more money is printed the less it is worth. And if it is worth less than the poor can't acquire the same wealth.

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No. Capitalism requires the rich, the poor, and the middle class to properly function. It literally requires these by its very nature. If everyone were equal, it would be communism.

See unfortunately, like it or not, capitalism IS designed to keep the majority down. If everyone was rich we wouldn't need jobs.

If it keeps the majority down, why isnt it then, under capitalism, the first middle class was born, with personal wealth exploding and the average individual being richer than their socialist counter part. 

Only in capitalist counties is it common to find people who stared out with nothing and ending up being wealth respected individual. Why because in a capitalist system its up to the INDIVIDUAL to create his own wealth, you dont need to redistribute wealth from the rich, wealth is created everyday. If everyone hoarding wealth, as long as everyone still buys and sells wealth will still be created and we all can continue to hoard wealth. 

You need to understand wealth is created, which is why economy grow because as our populations grows/we come more effective etc and the more people buy and sell this creates the demand for wealth to be created. Rich people hoarding (everyone hoards their wealth its called a bank saving account ) doesn't effect everyone else wealth or opportunity to created their own. 

 

Whoa. Calm down there. You know nothing of my contributions to society. So I don't have a business. I don't hand out pay checks and create jobs. But I certainly think I contribute my share.

You see, IDC how rich you become. If that is your goal in life so be it. I personally don't care for wealth. I refuse to live my life based on it. Reason being:

When Im laying on my death bed, money, houses, cars, wealth. This will amount to nothing. Meaningless junk IMHO. What IS going to mean something is the experiences I had while I had my experience. And I believe wealth and competition has a way of blinding people and preventing them from that peace of mind.

Besides, being on the poor end forces me to be more creative in creating my experiences, rather than just buying generic experiences.

You do contribute your share doesn't change the fact i contribute more,

 

Again, IDC how wealthy you are in life. As long as you return your fare share to the community. You may have earned it, but not without the community who made it happen.

Oh but dont you see, i have already return my fare share to the community. The community gave me money for example for new cheap lightbulbs that will save them money in the long wrong. Its completely fair, i traded a product for a small sum of money. now that money is rightfully mine and the product is rightfully theirs.

I'm sorry but I'm not in Australia. Where are you getting this information?

i lived near the protests back in 06, Unions although losing power are always in the headlines demanding more holidays and pay increases. 

 

Which is why most factory workers make a decent wage. Oh wait.

In Australia, they do, which is my the car industries is leaving Australia, by 2016 the last car factory will be closed, Wages are so high that the car industry couldn't make a profit and stay in business. 

The problem is factory workers want to earn as much as construction workers the problem is the products they make, 

the cars they sell pay for their wages so wages cant be very much, while selling a house or a building pays for the construction workers wages. Yet most unions and lefty dont understand this, and with wages continuously going up and our industries are starting to go out of business. 

 

That may have been true when only experienced works could do ********, but not today. A low wage inexperienced worker and a machine is more valuable than a high wage worker.

Yeah when your talking about supermarkets and first food outlets... 

 

And you'd be driven in to the ground because your greedy competitors would pay lower wages than you and sell their products cheaper.

You'd be also required to pay more for the experienced workers for a longer period of time than the unskilled worker.

Depends on the product, i might not have to pay them much more than a unskilled worker. I would save money and time having experienced workers and could even well save me money in efficiently and being payed a bit more may make them work hard resulting in more products made.

I once worked at a printing station, and the employer would only employee  experienced workers, he had no time or money to train anyone and had found he was saving money in the long run because they worked hard, they knew what they were doing and brought new knowledge and ways of doing things he never thought of. 

Like Apple i could also rely on my brand, having high quality products made by experienced workers. 

 

What? If the 1% accumulate more wealth (wealth not money), then the 99% have less wealth. It doesn't matter how much money they have, because as more money is printed the less it is worth. And if it is worth less than the poor can't acquire the same wealth.

Wrong, if wealth couldn't be created our economy would never grow. 

There are two ways to make money, one way is the wrong way, you print the money when the market doesn't demands it, you are now flooding the market with money it doesn't need and like over producing a product, the value of that product falls, 

then these the right way, when the market grows and needs money to be created to account for the grow of the products and their value. this is when you can print money and meet the demand of the market and the value of the money doesn't fall. 

For some reason now the US is printing lots and lots of money which the market isnt demanding it, its causing alot of problems, a capitalist worst nightmare, the US economy is growing like 1%, at that rate the US should only need to print once every 5 years not 24/7 as it is doing now. Im just glad Australia isnt doing the same. 

It doesnt matter if the rich save their wealth, as long as the poor work or produce a product someone is willing to buy then wealth will be created, and the economy grows as the new market (the poor man and his product) is develops  

 

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If it keeps the majority down, why isnt it then,

It is..... O.o

And I quit reading after that because you don't seem to understand what capitalism is.

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It is..... O.o

And I quit reading after that because you don't seem to understand what capitalism is.

Explain it? 

And im at university studying politics, i know what Capitalism is, its a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its result is the free-market.

​What the US has today is cronyism or corporatism. Democracy has failed to protect Capitalism, And one could say the same thing about the Soviets and Socialism.

Edited by Ahovking

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Listen, you're one of my favorite people in PT, Ahovking. Despite our differences in RL. So I've been trying to go though this debate as respectful as possible. (But hey, Im firey)

In Capitalism, you have the idea that ALL are given the CHANCE to succeed. But in order to do so, they mist compete with everyone else. Whoevercreates the most valuable possetion or service wins. However, the only way to do those is by getting people to buy it, and then getting people to produce it for you for an extremely shall fraction of the profit (because the point is to make money yourself.) You also have to get people to sell it, and pay them, for an extremely small fraction of the profit (because the point is to make money.)

The ONLY way to do this, is to have people below you, who are less fortunate. People you can pay to make this all happen. (Unless you want to do it ALL yourself, which will never get you rich.

Yes, you create jobs. But you don't create equality. You give a shall fraction back to the people who actually make it happen because you want to profit.

This is only way capitalism can work. Because that IS capitalism. You mist always have people below you in order to succeed. And the quantity of those people mist always be higher than yourself. Because humans aren't machines.

The rich are literally supported by poor. Capitalism requires this inequality. It demands it, because otherwise, by its very nature, cannot exist

Again, if we were all rich, it would be communism.

So tell me, how can you become "rich" without people below you making it happen?

Also, I think its worth mentioning, socialism is NOT communism.

Socialism is what the USSR was. A society of five social classes with government control over production.

Communism is a classless society where everyone owns and controls production as a whole. The government is abolished entirely.

(The only states to make it to communism have quickly failed. Because Anarchist utopias, by human nature, cannot exist.)

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In Capitalism, you have the idea that ALL are given the CHANCE to succeed. But in order to do so, they mist compete with everyone else. Whoevercreates the most valuable possetion or service wins.

 correct 

 

The ONLY way to do this, is to have people below you, who are less fortunate

Why are employees 'below' the employer ?, nothing is stopping the employees from doing what the employer is doing. We are all equals after all. Its the employees CHOICE to CHOOSE either he works for another man or himself (education and wealth isn't needed to be an employer). Someone like you who doesn't care about wealth and power might be happy to choose being an employee while someone like me who wants power and wealth might choose to be an employer.

 

 

 

Yes, you create jobs. But you don't create equality. You give a shall fraction back to the people who actually make it happen because you want to profit.

The problem is your employees have created a product that costs $900 so now you have to pay $900 (their fair share of what they made) to the employees (90% of all businesses do this, those that don't never last very long, business 101) , any less and you start having problems with your employees and that will effect your end profits. 

What often happens is that the employer would keep the "value adding" profit for himself and the expenses of the business and rightfully divides the earns of the actual product between the employees. Now pay the employees any more and you start to run into troubles with your budget, 

The Soviet Union used the same model, workers were payed their fair share, if you don't then the business gets into budget troubles. 

 

 

 

This is only way capitalism can work. Because that IS capitalism. You mist always have people below you in order to succeed. And the quantity of those people mist always be higher than yourself. Because humans aren't machines.

In a small business, the employees often earn close to that the employer earns, this creates a family atmosphere and your employees work very hard. My parents was the perfect example of this after 7 years they started paying the employees close to what they earn the result was a lot of work was done fast and profits actually increased. 

Screwing the employee seems the best way to make a profit but its not and its why businesses fail. luckily majority of businesses know this. 

 

 

 

The rich are literally supported by poor. Capitalism requires this inequality. It demands it, because otherwise, by its very nature, cannot exist 

The rich are literally supported by the poor, like the poor are literally supported by the rich, inequality is meant to be an incentive to work harder, because anyone can be the rich, like Halle Berry, Ralph Lauren and Francois Pinault who was a high school dropout who now leads luxury goods group PPR and Richard Desmond who went from living above a garage to creating an empire that published magaze. these poeple went from rags to riches. 

In capitalism Inequality doesn't matter the poor can be rich, all that is requires is hard work..something our generation and new generations sadly lacks.

Look the employer payes the employee to make him a product and then sells it to the consumer, the employee now has an income to increase if living stranded and the consumer can now do the same with his new product, all because the employer wants to get rich, everyone benefits..

In this system the poor is richer per capita than the poor in the USSR, you might like to think capitalism is harming the poor more than a socialist country but in reality, if your poor your better of in the US or Australia than in a socialist hole.   

 

 

 

So tell me, how can you become "rich" without people below you making it happen?

come again? 

 

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espn13S.jpg

Remember with is created not merely transferred, This is what made the United States so powerful and wealthy, full of capitalist not redistributing the wealth but creating it. 

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Wealth is created yes, but the phrase "One.man is rich because another is poor" is absolutely true.

As evidence of this claim, I simply direct you back to my previous comment, where I said that you cannot have a successful business without people under you, who are, by your standards, poor.

So not only is the image you posted, a lie, its lying by accusing a factual statement of being a lie.

So I want to hear how you can succeed without having the poor to make it.happen.

And I don't want.to hear anymore of the "everyone can succeed" BS. I want to hear how the rich can exist without the poor?

Also, no. Not everyone can succeed. Everyone has a "chance" to succeed, is more accurate. However this chance is.not equal. Many people are socially prone to failure because of reasons they have no control over. Simaler to how other people are socially prone to success because of reasons they have no control over.

I understand the idea of capitalism but I also have come to realize a blatantly taught lie that these societies teach their kids:

"When you grow up, you can be anything you want."

Thats utter bullshit. Theoretically true, yes. But communism and Nazism are also theoretically true.

But once you take it off paper and put it into reality, it turns out to be total bullshit. Wishful thinking at best.

Capitalist societies teach their children this to put that idea in their head, and motivate them to pursue their dream. Unfortunately, the.vast majority of people will never see that dream, even if they pursue it their whole life.

Bit next I assume you will say its "their fault" because they "didn't work hard enough."

If you have any understanding of society, you know that isn't true.

come again? 

Exactly what I said. Its a simple question:

So tell me, how can you become "rich" without people below you making it happen?

come again? 

Exactly what I said. Its a simple question:

So tell me, how can you become "rich" without people below you making it happen?

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