Ahovking

Wealth Gaps/Inequality

12 posts in this topic

Personally i don't see whats bad about Wealth Gaps/Inequality. Capitalism is a system that rewards individuals' hard work and entrepreneurship, it is hardly surprising that some will be richer than others, after all, what incentive would there be to work hard unless it offers some sort of reward?

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Go live in Russia for a month and tell me how grand it is.

Its cool if you support Capitalism. Bit in reality both sides of the spectrum have flaws that history has proven.

I mean, you really need look no further than Russia to see the flaws of Capitalism. Its a thriving example of Capitalism gone wrong. The nation has no middle class, if you live there, you're most likely poor and will never succeed or amount to anything regardless of how hard you work. You will simply work your ass off for a ******** wage and eventually die. Its a nation run by the mafia and the capitalist system is designed to keep people down.

Because of greed.

In fact, the standard of living was way higher under Communism. Which is exactly why so many people in the old soviet republics still support communism and want that union back. In fact, communism is quite popular in Russia. Its not uncommon to see people still flying soviet flags and throwing communist rallies. Why? Because capitalism has failed in Russia.

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Go live in Russia for a month and tell me how grand it is.

Its cool if you support Capitalism. Bit in reality both sides of the spectrum have flaws that history has proven.

I mean, you really need look no further than Russia to see the flaws of Capitalism. Its a thriving example of Capitalism gone wrong. The nation has no middle class, if you live there, you're most likely poor and will never succeed or amount to anything regardless of how hard you work. You will simply work your ass off for a ******** wage and eventually die. Its a nation run by the mafia and the capitalist system is designed to keep people down.

Because of greed.

In fact, the standard of living was way higher under Communism. Which is exactly why so many people in the old soviet republics still support communism and want that union back. In fact, communism is quite popular in Russia. Its not uncommon to see people still flying soviet flags and throwing communist rallies. Why? Because capitalism has failed in Russia.

 

Russia is capitalist but its extremely corrupted which creates "corporatism or cronyism" in which corporations or power figures use their power and positions to abuse the power of the state to their own benefit (something happens in socialist nations), basic capitalist principles are still allowed like private property,

this only happens when the country (Russia for example) doesn't have the institutions in place to prevent the system being hijacked or taken advantage of, something that could happen in Socialist counties as well.

Now second, is that Russia is a developing state, its no longer a developed state like Australia or US, its now a developing state like India and China, And when you compare Russia in its rightful class (with China and India) its outdoing most counties easily in most areas.

2012 was the year Russian students finally started suppressing scores set by the soviet students, and although Income inequality is high, most Russians enjoy wages and pensions few counties can afforded. Its taken 20 years but Russia is slowly getting back on its feet, but you cant compare it to developed counties, its not full capitalism and its not full democracy, the same with India and china, it takes time for these institutions to be developed before real capitalism/or democracy can developed.

The problem was when the USSR collapsed the american gave the impressions that it would be a quick and easy transition form communism to capitalism, the problem was that it was very painful, the new Russian state didn't have the wealth it needed to upkeep what was left behind by the soviets (after all they had all the states breaking away and a shrinking population). The Russian people felt capitalism had failed, because they were promised it would be quick and easy, instead they had a few civil wars and the Russian state continued to cut programs as they tried and avoided bankruptcy..little to no progress in the passed 20 years.  

However as we seen Capitalism seems to be giving the best results, even state capitalism (China) and more relaxed market capitalism are developing and improving the lives of people in developing counties like the BRICS nations. 

 

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And when you compare Russia in its rightful class (with China and India) its outdoing most counties easily in most areas.

Like what? I can't think of anything....

its not full capitalism

Yes it is. Its just run by the Bratva. (Mafia). So unless you're a corrupt ******** that the mafia wants to have power, you go nowhere. I mean, if you have power in Russia, thank the mafia for handing it to you.

The problem was when the USSR collapsed the american gave the impressions that it would be a quick and easy transition form communism to capitalism, the problem was that it was very painful, the new Russian state didn't have the wealth it needed to upkeep what was left behind by the soviets (after all they had all the states breaking away and a shrinking population). The Russian people felt capitalism had failed, because they were promised it would be quick and easy, instead they had a few civil wars and the Russian state continued to cut programs as they tried and avoided bankruptcy..little to no progress in the passed 20 years.

No, the problem with the collapse of USSR was that after the government died, only one other organization had the wealth, power, and influence to really grab on. Those few people rose to extreme wealth very fast and left everyone else behind. Capitalism WAS quick and easy. But only for a corrupt few. Even the people in Russia themselves all know very well who runs their nation.

Now Capitalism in America works GREAT! Or at least it DID. Nowadays, our capitalist system is concentrating wealth and threatening our economy.

If the issue of wealth concentration isn't addressed soon, we will end up like Russia with a stagnated economy.

I mean, we already have the richest people deciding our elections for us and lobbyists buying politics.

Capitalism can be a good thing, but too much of ANYTHING is always a bad thing.

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Like what? I can't think of anything....

Yes it is. Its just run by the Bratva. (Mafia). So unless you're a corrupt ******** that the mafia wants to have power, you go nowhere. I mean, if you have power in Russia, thank the mafia for handing it to you.

No, the problem with the collapse of USSR was that after the government died, only one other organization had the wealth, power, and influence to really grab on. Those few people rose to extreme wealth very fast and left everyone else behind. Capitalism WAS quick and easy. But only for a corrupt few. Even the people in Russia themselves all know very well who runs their nation.

Now Capitalism in America works GREAT! Or at least it DID. Nowadays, our capitalist system is concentrating wealth and threatening our economy.

If the issue of wealth concentration isn't addressed soon, we will end up like Russia with a stagnated economy.

I mean, we already have the richest people deciding our elections for us and lobbyists buying politics.

Capitalism can be a good thing, but too much of ANYTHING is always a bad thing.

Russia is currently more developed than China or India, inequality is smaller in Russia then in both China and India again, Quality of life, Literacy,is higher in Russia than in china and India, In Education, Russia is just a point ahead of china and India is far down the list. and when it comes to Life expectancy, China and India finally top's Russia.

Impossible democratic institutions to developed Capitalism quickly. Capitalism relies on the freedom of individuals to make choices of their own, which they still haven't enjoyed, even after 20 years.

lobbyists has nothing to do with capitalism, they have to do with democracy and how is the wealthy threatening the US economy?

Edited by Ahovking

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I highly doubt the quality of life, is higher or that the inequality is lower.

And according to test scores, China is doing better than Russia on education in pretty much every subject.

Do you have current figures for this?

how is the wealthy threatening the US economy? 

They're causing a concentration of wealth thats getting worse?

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Capitalism and socialism are both fine as long as long as they are left checked. In pure capitalism, people become oppressed by a few. In communism, people become oppressed by a few (given, there is no government in pure communism, however, most communist states had to commit acts of genocide in order to become purely communist).

 

Capitalism is not quick and easy. The Soviet Union's problem during its waning days was that Gorbachev tried to convert the USSR to a more capitalist society too quickly with his Perestroika and Glasnost policies. Those two policies alone, generally, were the primary causes of the collapse in '89-'91

 

China has learned from the USSR's mistakes. China, while maintaining a firm communist stance, has since begun to convert to a mixed economy much more slowly, and therefore will maintain a stable government as it transitions.

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I highly doubt the quality of life, is higher or that the inequality is lower.

And according to test scores, China is doing better than Russia on education in pretty much every subject.

Do you have current figures for this?

Russia scores around 0.750–0.799, while china only scores 0.650–0.699 and India scores 0.500–0.549, so yes quality of life is higher in Russia than china and India, and inequality in Russia is lower its about 0.580 compared to china's 0.890 and India's 0.900

Educational wise:

800px-Education_index_UN_HDR_2007_2008.P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

 

They're causing a concentration of wealth thats getting worse?

Wealth is created, nothing is stopping you from creating wealth and the 1% concentration their wealth wont effect anyone else ability to create their own wealth.

​The wealthy in Australia spend alot less than the wealthy in the the US, so in Australia our 1% is concentration a larger percent of wealth than the american 1%, yet we are not seeming the problem here in Australia. Japan and china's 1% has even larger percent of concentration of wealth.

Blaming the wealthy for peoples problems is unjustified. and its like blaming Jews for the world problem.

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OK. I won't argue quality of life and inequality. Ill have to do some reading.

However.I have been doing some reading and the education topic is interesting. It seems like the value of education in Russia varies by region and it seems east China has better education than overall Russia. So those scores may be weighed down by the western rural China. Although, I imagine there is probably a simaler case for Russia.

In the end, whatever. All in all, Ill give you that one.

Im not blaming the the rich for the worlds problems. Not at all.

All I am saying is that capitalism has a major flaw. Just like Socialism has a major flaw. A utopia is an imaginary thing. It is impossible to exist in human culture. A truly successful nation requires balance.

I firmly believe that ANY system, no matter how great, will inevitably fail. Simply because cultures evolve, the world is ever changing and so too must the system, or fail.

IE: Feudalism isn't really a thing anymore.

I respect our capitalist views. Ill agree to disagree.

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The biggest trend in the history of capitalism was been the concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands and well capitalism has also increased the absolute standard of living do you think that it will be able to do this forever 

Edited by Steodonn

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I firmly believe that ANY system, no matter how great, will inevitably fail.

 

 

but in all reality, isn't that the most beautiful thing about the systems that we are talking about. i mean... 1 most of these systems are man made social and concious systems, which in and of itself is an amazing feat of nature(or i guess social evolution) to accomplish such organization without it just happening by nature(or is it all nature that does this in a way?) 2. even though all these systems are flawed they all do great at accomplishing one GOOD thing(maybe more)... i.e. capatilism promots hard work and competition, which i think is a good thing... i mean evolution could be considered competition to an extent. forced competition i guess... but systems like socialism or communism(depending on if you consider communism a economic style) promote shared social goals and cooperative unity... and although these GOOD qualities are generally twisted by what seems to be natural human behavior, those good qualities still exist... which in itself is amazing... and finally, 3... even if one human social system falls... one will always replace it... real anarchy is something i don't really think exists in a constant, its more of a transition, but no matter how a transition takes place, a system with rules, with a set goal will be established, which again... i think is pretty cool...

 

i mean, i think it would be better to say that, its not the social and governing systems that are flawed but its those that partake in such systems that are the flawed ones... because whos to say if we were more "perfect" however anyone wish's to see that, that those flaws would still exist. but i could also just be played word doctor lol. humanity tends to have some weird quirks in our behavior in comparison to other organisms and their social organization.

 

we all know the quote "power is all corrupting" right? makes sense to me.

 

but i agree with all of everything you and others said... its political and social science i would think, one of those topics that are hard to be 100% factual... and i may be a bit over analytical.

 

this is however all personal thought, as i don't have much experiance with the figured you guys bring up... amazing how much info is really out there on the web and what not.

Edited by kiosixos

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The biggest trend in the history of capitalism was been the concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands and well capitalism has also increased the absolute standard of living do you think that it will be able to do this forever

 

it was only until the early 1900s did the wealth began to concentrate into fewer and fewer hands. before the 1900s wealth was generally well spread out amount the population for almost 150 years

and even today where wealth has been concentrate into the hands of the fewer, the majority are living a healthier, more enriched or happier and more imported lives than ever before.

All you need to do is compare a socialist state (USSR) to a Capitalist state (USA) And despite a larger wealth gap, you were better off in the US than in the USSR.

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