Paul_

Israel launches ground invasion of Gaza

67 posts in this topic

The People of Palestine and Israel, who despite mainstream media, for the most part support any peaceful solution. 

 

Also the US's most strategic Ally would be Saudi Arabia imo, due to their oil supplies, and access to both gulfs in the Arabian Peninsula, Israel on the other hand, is a mere island surrounded by hostile militants. Israel is not a strategic ally, and it's an unwise ally. Look up how many times they have been asked by the UN to do something and they refuse, look up how many times they have knowingly killed civilians, Israel is not a true ally, but an enemy, that is currently assaulting US relations around the world by maintaining ties with them.

yeah, and apparently Hamas controls the Palestinian parliament

 

The US's most strategic ally is Israel, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. Because not only does the US wants oil (highly debatable due to fracking which makes shale affordable) but they want a stable middle east. The Turkish and Israeli militaries are enforcers of that, there is a reason why the US supports Israel and that's because they owned most of the arab world twice. And most of their foregin policies are favourable to the US (look up operation opera)

Edited by Ax3hunter

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yeah, and apparently Hamas controls the Palestinian parliament

 

The US's most strategic ally is Israel, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. Because not only does the US wants oil (highly debatable due to fracking which makes shale affordable) but they want a stable middle east. The Turkish and Israeli militaries are enforcers of that, there is a reason why the US supports Israel and that's because they owned most of the arab world twice. And most of their foregin policies are favourable to the US (look up operation opera)

 

If Israeli policies are favorable to us I fear for the future of our own nation.

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If Israeli policies are favorable to us I fear for the future of our own nation.

 

It's favourable to the US because it's a stabilizing force, look at how powerful their military is and look at the messed up clusterf*** that is Iraq and Syria. Once ISIS is defeated (yes they will be defeated) Israel, Turkey, and Iran will be one of the few countries that will be the true victors as everyone is utterly exhausted fighting ISIS

 

If you're Israel right now and your only major enemy is Gaza, you know that Israel is heavily dominating the middle east. Don't worry about the future of the US Lazarus, Israel has a rather tarnished reputation but it has done the job of completely pacifying the middle east in the cold war and the post cold war era

Edited by Ax3hunter

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It's favourable to the US because it's a stabilizing force, look at how powerful their military is and look at the messed up clusterf*** that is Iraq and Syria. Once ISIS is defeated (yes they will be defeated) Israel, Turkey, and Iran will be one of the few countries that will be the true victors as everyone is utterly exhausted fighting ISIS

 

If you're Israel right now and your only major enemy is Gaza, you know that Israel is heavily dominating the middle east. Don't worry about the future of the US Lazarus, Israel has a rather tarnished reputation but it has done the job of completely pacifying the middle east in the cold war and the post cold war era

Did you just say "Completely pacifying the middle east"? I am afraid you have thrown out facts.

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If you're Israel right now and your only major enemy is Gaza

Which oddly enough is their own people.

Don't forget ISIS. That's a way bigger threat.

but it has done the job of completely pacifying the middle east

Surely you mean pissing them off.

look at how powerful their military is

I'd be pretty bad ass too if I had America handing me everything I desired.

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Not tolerated, but treated as equals and not infringed upon.

And exactly. The original intention was obviously to not have a Jewish state or a Palestinian state, but to create a multicultural homeland for Jews.

This is just one of many reasons why a one state solution is the only solution.

Once Israel is willing to accept that Israel is not meant to be a fascist, racist, Zionist state, but rather a single state meant to be shared, there might be some peace.

But they remain intolerant because the ideas of Zionism instil this nationalist ideal.

Israel Will not survive the next generation unless they accept it. Because younger Americans are losing support for Israel with each generation.

Why?

Because they are getting smarter and intelligence leads to questioning the bearded man in the clouds, which leads us to question why that delusion exists.

We then come to the conclusion that "because God said so" is no longer an intelligent or legitimate argument because said argument doesn't even exist.

 

So in one hand you show aggressiveness towards the Israeli state, which seems to be partially centered around their intolerance of Arabs in general. Yet in the other hand you make your own statements of intolerance towards religion. Which I might add are generally offensive to those people that actually believe in religion. Which could be described as bigoted if we're going off definitions. You claim that Israel should execute the original agreement concerning the creation of the Israeli state, but you don't even follow the very morals that you have implied by your statements. Maybe the problem with humanity as a whole is that we're all hypocrites. Even the ones that try to pretend to be on the moral and "Right" high ground. The excuse for thousands of atrocities committed throughout history. 

 

As a side note I remember reading that there was a high percentage of Jewish individuals that outright feared their Arab neighbors. Perhaps almost continuous shelling into Israel by violent militants (who happen to be Arab), or invasions by foreign nations (that happen to be Arab) could be part of that statistic. It doesn't exactly matter who created the problems, as most of the individuals that had a hand in their creation are now long since dead. They're here now, and they should be dealt with. Israel isn't just going to go away. With that in mind it doesn't matter why Hamas is shelling Israel. According to international law the Israeli's have every right to defend themselves from an aggressor. As Hamas continues to shell Israel, Israeli's will continue to become more and more xenophobic and militant about their defense. It's easy to watch this evolution throughout the course of it's existence. Imagine europeanized Jews being subjected to the constant targeting of their living accommodations (by Arabs), and the relative barbarism surrounding most Middle Eastern insurgency groups. I'd be scared and pissed off too. 

Edited by Prussia

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Did you just say "Completely pacifying the middle east"? I am afraid you have thrown out facts.

look at how messed up the middle east right now Paul just look at it. They are so screwed up with internal revolts (Syria), ISIS (Syria and Iraq) and general Chaos (Arab Spring anyone??) that Israel has no real enemies in the region. Yes when i do mean pacifying i do mean beating everyone up to such a state that they pose no threat to Israel

Which oddly enough is their own people.

Don't forget ISIS. That's a way bigger threat.

Nope. They are Palestinians, look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

 

And focus on the ethnic groups part

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So in one hand you show aggressiveness towards the Israeli state, which seems to be partially centered around their intolerance of Arabs in general. Yet in the other hand you make your own statements of intolerance towards religion. Which I might add are generally offensive to those people that actually believe in religion. Which could be described as bigoted if we're going off definitions. You claim that Israel should execute the original agreement concerning the creation of the Israeli state, but you don't even follow the very morals that you have implied by your statements. Maybe the problem with humanity as a whole is that we're all hypocrites. Even the ones that try to pretend to be on the moral and "Right" high ground. The excuse for thousands of atrocities committed throughout history. 

 

As a side note I remember reading that there was a high percentage of Jewish individuals that outright feared their Arab neighbors. Perhaps almost continuous shelling into Israel by violent militants (who happen to be Arab), or invasions by foreign nations (that happen to be Arab) could be part of that statistic. It doesn't exactly matter who created the problems, as most of the individuals that had a hand in their creation are now long since dead. They're here now, and they should be dealt with. Israel isn't just going to go away. With that in mind it doesn't matter why Hamas is shelling Israel. According to international law the Israeli's have every right to defend themselves from an aggressor. As Hamas continues to shell Israel, Israeli's will continue to become more and more xenophobic and militant about their defense. It's easy to watch this evolution throughout the course of it's existence. Imagine europeanized Jews being subjected to the constant targeting of their living accommodations (by Arabs), and the relative barbarism surrounding most Middle Eastern insurgency groups. I'd be scared and pissed off too. 

 

 

What is considered terrorism to some, is considered patriotism to others. Arabs are fighting for what they perceive is a European-Judaic infringement of their lands, what if instead of taking Jerusalem, the Jews we're given Washington DC, a heart of American Culture, or London, a heart of British Culture. Jerusalem had become a vocal cultural center of the Arabic People. There is no morally right ground here, the fact is Europeans took advantage of the "uncivilized" arabs and gave their land to Jewish counterparts who had not occupied it for thousands of years. Also Hamas is a group fueled from Gazan-Israeli hate, Israel has been occupying Gaza long before they took power, and their brutality and occupying forces, drove people to radicalism and formed the basis of Hamas. The IDF is to blame for it's own major threats. Also, let me re-iterate a point made earlier.

 

3 Isreali Civilians died in the conflict.

 

1000+ Palestinian Civilians died in the conflict.

 

The fact that I have to estimated the Palestinian deaths is even a point of horror if you consider it. Literally so many people died, they can't confirm how many are dead or simply missing. Yes, those three Israeli deaths are a shame. However who do you really think is constantly fearing shelling from their neighbor?

 

look at how messed up the middle east right now Paul just look at it. They are so screwed up with internal revolts (Syria), ISIS (Syria and Iraq) and general Chaos (Arab Spring anyone??) that Israel has no real enemies in the region. Yes when i do mean pacifying i do mean beating everyone up to such a state that they pose no threat to Israel

Nope. They are Palestinians, look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

 

And focus on the ethnic groups part

 

You know what's funny? You can say the Middle East is a mess, but you forget that a majority of it's issues are caused by American/Soviet influence and backroom deals during the Cold War. The US caused most of the issues you are saying, if you look at ISIS's forming, you'll also find the American foreign power play at hand. American Foreign Policy is still operating on the "You break it you buy it" ideology. So we continue going in making cracks in everything, but can justify us leaving said areas as we have not "broken" anything. Meaning, we do things in the middle east that are sending shockwaves across the region, but do not attempt to control the consequences. We simply let it happen. 

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Yet in the other hand you make your own statements of intolerance towards religion.

Because religion is stupid. I couldn't care less how religious people take that.

,Israel isn't just going to go away.

Yes they will. Maybe not tomorrow, but they will.

Nope. They are Palestinians,

Are you intentionally being stupid?

We're all in agreement that a Palestinian state has never existed, yes?

So yes, Palestinians are Israeli citizens. Or at least legally speaking, they should be. But you have a group of racist Jews displacing them from their homes and claiming they must find a new place to live because a bearded ******** in the sky said this land is now Jewish.

(And Murica said so!)

Yes, Israel is actually bombing their very own people. They aren't fighting a foreign nation, they're committing a genocide within their own borders.

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Are you intentionally being stupid?

We're all in agreement that a Palestinian state has never existed, yes?

So yes, Palestinians are Israeli citizens. Or at least legally speaking, they should be. But you have a group of racist Jews displacing them from their homes and claiming they must find a new place to live because a bearded ******** in the sky said this land is now Jewish.

(And Murica said so!)

Yes, Israel is actually bombing their very own people. They aren't fighting a foreign nation, they're committing a genocide within their own borders.

No i am not being intentionally stupid. 

 

Palestinians are their own race and yes they never formed their own state. And NO they are not Israeli citizens, they are Palestinian citizens (well officially anyways) living in Palestine and most of them are Palestinians themselves, most of the population in Israel are Jews themselves so yeah i see a clear difference between the Palestinians and Israelis.

 

(personally speaking i never really liked Jewish long term foreign policy of "we're going to smash you up and not do anything to your nation long term because uhhh....reasons") because that's what causing most of the problems in the middle east

You know what's funny? You can say the Middle East is a mess, but you forget that a majority of it's issues are caused by American/Soviet influence and backroom deals during the Cold War. The US caused most of the issues you are saying, if you look at ISIS's forming, you'll also find the American foreign power play at hand. American Foreign Policy is still operating on the "You break it you buy it" ideology. So we continue going in making cracks in everything, but can justify us leaving said areas as we have not "broken" anything. Meaning, we do things in the middle east that are sending shockwaves across the region, but do not attempt to control the consequences. We simply let it happen. 

That is where i have to disagree with you, the British and French are the ones who started the whole mess in the first place (look at Sykes Picot agreement, Mcmahon letters and the Balfour declaration) and now they're in the fracking clear!! (some parts of me also want to blame Germany due to Zimmerman sending in Lenin to Russia and started the whole cold war BS politics in the middle east)

 

But yeah the US really needs to fix their foreign policy, they are making progress (painfully slow progress need i remind you) but they need to make it faster so we can have a safe and stable middle east.

Edited by Ax3hunter

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Technically Palestinians are citizens of nothing. They've been displaced by their own foreign made government and made second class citizens in a territory which is occupied and viewed neither as a part of Israel or an independent state by the international community.

It's like a giant refugee camp that Israel treats like a bomb testing site.

The problem with the middle east is that it once was a powerful, stable empire that we divided, conquered and used to fuel our industrialization. Plus Israel being a destabilizing force in the region.

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look at how messed up the middle east right now Paul just look at it. They are so screwed up with internal revolts (Syria), ISIS (Syria and Iraq) and general Chaos (Arab Spring anyone??) that Israel has no real enemies in the region. Yes when i do mean pacifying i do mean beating everyone up to such a state that they pose no threat to Israel

Nope. They are Palestinians, look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

 

And focus on the ethnic groups part

 

lel, Israel had nothing to do with ISIS. They are NOT pacified. You're fooling yourself with the idea that Israel caused issues in the Middle East. I would recommend you read a textbook beforehand. 

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No i am not being intentionally stupid. 

 

Palestinians are their own race and yes they never formed their own state. And NO they are not Israeli citizens, they are Palestinian citizens (well officially anyways) living in Palestine and most of them are Palestinians themselves, most of the population in Israel are Jews themselves so yeah i see a clear difference between the Palestinians and Israelis.

 

(personally speaking i never really liked Jewish long term foreign policy of "we're going to smash you up and not do anything to your nation long term because uhhh....reasons") because that's what causing most of the problems in the middle east

That is where i have to disagree with you, the British and French are the ones who started the whole mess in the first place (look at Sykes Picot agreement, Mcmahon letters and the Balfour declaration) and now they're in the fracking clear!! (some parts of me also want to blame Germany due to Zimmerman sending in Lenin to Russia and started the whole cold war BS politics in the middle east)

 

But yeah the US really needs to fix their foreign policy, they are making progress (painfully slow progress need i remind you) but they need to make it faster so we can have a safe and stable middle east.

 

British and French divided the Arabian World into Colonial Mandates. If they had just released these mandates as democratic countries, they could have created a essentially stable Middle East if they continued to help fund these nations in the form of foreign aid. For the most part, France has had no overlying effect on the Middle East. Britain however established Israel and yes, that definitely was not a good idea. However I was moreso referring to the effect of the US and USSR on funding revolutions/begining military engagements in the Middle East to better suit their causes and thereby lengthening conflicts and causing sides to win that would not have won otherwise, ultimately causing further revolutions as an entire generation is left orphaned due to such civil conflicts, and causing extreme right factions to rise against them. Ex: Afghanistan & Iran

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lel, Israel had nothing to do with ISIS. They are NOT pacified. You're fooling yourself with the idea that Israel caused issues in the Middle East. I would recommend you read a textbook beforehand. 

yes Israel has nothing to do with ISIS, but it has EVERYTHING to do with screwing up the middle east to the state it is right now.

 

 

Look at the Great Catastrophe, the first and second intifada, look also at Yom Kippur and the Six Day war which Israel crushed ALL of the arab world like nothing happened. Due to this it fueled arab hatred for the west because it's the British and the Americans who started the whole thing and now the arabian world (minus Israel and Turkey mind you) is siding with the Soviet Union and nearly got the US TO GO TO WAR WITH THE USSR because of the issues on the middle east far before 9/11 and ISIS. 

 

9/11 and ISIS all started (directly and indirectly) due to a middle east that is severely pissed with a small country of no significant importance (at least initally anyways) and goes to tremendous amounts of backroom deals only to reach fracking nowhere (which only pisses off Israel and the west even more)

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yes Israel has nothing to do with ISIS, but it has EVERYTHING to do with screwing up the middle east to the state it is right now.

 

 

Look at the Great Catastrophe, the first and second intifada, look also at Yom Kippur and the Six Day war which Israel crushed ALL of the arab world like nothing happened. Due to this it fueled arab hatred for the west because it's the British and the Americans who started the whole thing and now the arabian world (minus Israel and Turkey mind you) is siding with the Soviet Union and nearly got the US TO GO TO WAR WITH THE USSR because of the issues on the middle east far before 9/11 and ISIS. 

 

9/11 and ISIS all started (directly and indirectly) due to a middle east that is severely pissed with a small country of no significant importance (at least initally anyways) and goes to tremendous amounts of backroom deals only to reach fracking nowhere (which only pisses off Israel and the west even more)

 

9/11 started because of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan, and US Senator Charlie Wilson's funding of Pakistani supporters who thereby created the Taliban in principle.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-major-r-owens/charlie-wilson-vs-osama-b_b_79201.html

 

Simply because some group dislikes Israel, doesn't mean they formed SOLELY cause they hate Israel. The western world has consistently screwed up the middle east just to pull one over on the Soviets, and simply to retain control over the worlds largest oil supplies, even if it means putting dictators or despots in power. The problem is, this is tunnel vision. ISIS did not form because of Israel either, I don't even think ISIS has claimed any part of Israel. ISIS formed from a resurgence of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, despite the Iraqi Security Minister warning the US Department of State (I think it was the Department of State?) of a possible resurgence as far back as 2006-ish (It may have been a few years later, it was at some time between 2006-2008). ISIS only recently broke of from Al-Qaeda when one of Al-Qaeda's subordinate groups in Syria, The Nusra Front, refused to merge with ISIS, and the leader sided with The Nusra Front. ISIS then invaded Syria on their own against The Nusra front and declared their Caliphate.

 

Also the fact Israel can crush most Arabian powers is irrelevant. It has a foreign nation with a budget of over 3 billion in military funding helping it get high-tech, and efficient technology. Which is why Firefox's quote of:

 

 

I'd be pretty bad ass too if I had America handing me everything I desired.

 

Is my favorite quote in this thread.

Edited by LazarusCarnabuci

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AQ and Al-Nusra are enemies if anything. IS, AQ and AN were all allies until all three decided they wanted to be the leader. Unfortunately IS won that argument by popular demand and now there's a three way war in Syria.

Also, all three groups want to create the same caliphate and all three want to wipe out Israel. The big difference between them and IS IS that IS believes goal #1 is cleansing Muslim society before going after Israel and the west. If IS secures Iraq and Syria, their next target is probably Jordan and wiping out Hamas.

And IDK why anyone is talking about aiding Free Syrian Army. FSA has absolutely no goals other than removing Assad. They are also allied to AN, so a win for FSA is a win for AN.

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