Elsuper

Ideas for Avoiding Resource Glut in the Markets

16 posts in this topic

Price stability in the resource markets is currently predicated upon game-wide demand growing as fast as supply. It is to be assumed that supply can only grow at this point, because once extractors and refineries are built there is no reason to ever dismantle them. While there is some growth in demand as nations become larger, if the growth in demand is less than the growth in supply, prices will plummet, as we have seen in concrete and lumber in the past couple of weeks, where many probably stocked up on extractors and refineries when prices were high, overproduced, and now are stuck with output that has ever-diminishing value. The only way this can be reversed is if demand suddenly spikes for some reason, but why would it, with the current mechanics? I expect the long-term trend for prices to be downward, as it stands. In real economies, this trend is cyclical and not linear, because when faced with low demand, producers have more-efficient options to scale back production besides scrapping entire production facilities. I propose a few changes that would allow and encourage this dynamic to exist in the game:

 

- Allow nations to control what capacity level their extractors and refineries operate at for different resources (i.e. if a wheat farm extracts 467 Tons per day and employs 303 workers, then scaling it down to 50% cuts output by half, cuts power consumption by half, and returns half of the workers to the private sector).

 

-(Less important) Significantly increase the number of workers required for extractors and refineries, to increase the opportunity cost of operating at full capacity, and to provide a greater incentive to return those workers to the private sector if deemed feasible.

 

On the other side of the coin, one realistic idea for increasing demand, and ensuring that demand will grow at a pace closer with supply, would be to introduce logistics costs for infrastructure and power tied directly to population and companies (people do live and work in buildings, after all). This would be in addition to the logistics requirement already in place.

 

I also suggest, when military is implemented, that there be military resource logistics upkeep, and possibly food and energy upkeep for military as well, for similar reasons.

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I completely agree with the first and second point, but I would like to add a cooldown timer when changing extractor and refinery efficiency.

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It would be realistic if prices were based on what you have or don't have in your nation like buying coal should never cost me much as I produce it myself but cement should cost me a lot of it as I can't produce it. Countries could sell stuff they produce anyway for more than they buy it for to countries who don't produce it. As it stands I can rarely buy stuff in the market as everything seems to cost over 1,000 Euro PER TON/LOAF/WHATEVER. I haven't even been here 2 months so I'm basically priced out of the market although at the moment this isn't a problem since I can't build anything as I don't have any power to spare and getting more will cost me 150 million. Needless to say I'm not even 1/10 of the way there. It's hard being a new nation. 

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It would be realistic if prices were based on what you have or don't have in your nation like buying coal should never cost me much as I produce it myself but cement should cost me a lot of it as I can't produce it. Countries could sell stuff they produce anyway for more than they buy it for to countries who don't produce it. As it stands I can rarely buy stuff in the market as everything seems to cost over 1,000 Euro PER TON/LOAF/WHATEVER. I haven't even been here 2 months so I'm basically priced out of the market although at the moment this isn't a problem since I can't build anything as I don't have any power to spare and getting more will cost me 150 million. Needless to say I'm not even 1/10 of the way there. It's hard being a new nation. 

 

Being you nation is relatively new, might I suggest buying land as it is pretty cheap when you start and it will increase you immigration rate (and thus, taxes) and you might want to increase you tax rate a bit - 5% is extraordinarily low.

 

Also, refineries and extractors should be pretty affordable at your status - buy some and get in the market.

Edited by Kinyodas

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Being you nation is relatively new, might I suggest buying land as it is pretty cheap when you start and it will increase you immigration rate (and thus, taxes) and you might want to increase you tax rate a bit - 5% is extraordinarily low.

 

Also, refineries and extractors should be pretty affordable at your status - buy some and get in the market.

I can't buy any more extractors or refineries* as I'm generating as much power as I'm using. I could buy more land but recently there was a glitch that gave me 100 million Euro and I spent that on land thinking it would be better in the long term than saving up for a coal plant since my population is always growing so fast and I think I read that if you have too many people in too little space there'll be more disease and now I have so much land that one square km would cost 785,736.05 . I think you're right about raising taxes though. A higher tax rate means lower literacy and a higher disease rate (I don't know how this works but that's what happens) and I like my people to have as high a standard of living as possible so I keep taxes as low as possible while still bringing in more than I spend but 150 million won't be too far away if I keep taxes high for a small while. I just hope that the government doesn't get overthrown. ("However, note that higher taxes are not necessarily better, as people are more reluctant to work hard if they are heavily taxed and very high taxes may even lead to protests, riots and the overthrowing of your government."

*I buy these and not nurses etc. so I can generate more resources and make more money. I have 63 extractors, 9 refineries and 11 warehouses.

Edited by Sioraf

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Your government is not going to be overthrown. The general consensus is to set personal taxes at 45% - I set mine at 35% Which seems to be a pretty good medium of decent income and happy peoples. More land = more people = more income if you up those tax rates. I also set my corporate at 10%. Depending on what happens during any given week, half my income comes from the market.

Edited by Kinyodas

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I can't buy any more extractors or refineries* as I'm generating as much power as I'm using. I could buy more land but recently there was a glitch that gave me 100 million Euro and I spent that on land thinking it would be better in the long term than saving up for a coal plant since my population is always growing so fast and I think I read that if you have too many people in too little space there'll be more disease and now I have so much land that one square km would cost 785,736.05 . I think you're right about raising taxes though. A higher tax rate means lower literacy and a higher disease rate (I don't know how this works but that's what happens) and I like my people to have as high a standard of living as possible so I keep taxes as low as possible while still bringing in more than I spend but 150 million won't be too far away if I keep taxes high for a small while. I just hope that the government doesn't get overthrown. ("However, note that higher taxes are not necessarily better, as people are more reluctant to work hard if they are heavily taxed and very high taxes may even lead to protests, riots and the overthrowing of your government."

*I buy these and not nurses etc. so I can generate more resources and make more money. I have 63 extractors, 9 refineries and 11 warehouses.

 

The best way to make money is by keeping personal tax rate at 45% and corporate tax rate at 100%. If you set personal tax rate any lower your people will have a higher salary but the resulting extra tax income is less then what you lose from having a lower tax rate. If you put your taxes any higher the effect is opposite: the higher tax rate doesn't compensate the lowered avg. income your people earn resulting in a net lower income.

 

Additionally I recommend to invest in infrastructure and services. It will boost your stats and avg. income so much that in the end your extra tax income is higher than what you paid for infra and services.

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I've set my taxes to 45 and 100 now. I had been getting extractors and refineries to have stuff to sell and give to the people in case a famine broke out or whatever I have to supply construction materials for. I have a few roads and 200 police and 480 nurses but I assumed that extractors and refineries would be a better return but maybe they aren't. More land means more people but I don't have enough jobs for the people I already have, unemployment is 8% at the moment. 

 

Edit: These tax rates are working out brilliantly.

Edited by Sioraf

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Yes, there needs to be a mechanic to increase demand of a certain resource. Right now I can't even sell Lumber due to how low of a profit I'd make.

Same goes for Bread and RNG.

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Yes, there needs to be a mechanic to increase demand of a certain resource. Right now I can't even sell Lumber due to how low of a profit I'd make.

Same goes for Bread and RNG.

Nobody is going to want to buy your food or energy sources, as they can produce their own. Just get over that. Stop trying to make it a thing. It will not happen. Okay?

 

Also, your logic on "making a profit is flawed." Extractors are a one time purchase price, as are refineries. Your only costs are therefore the cost to buy them. Therefore, the only reason your profit is low is because you are not selling the lumber. Once you sell enough money to overcome the initial cost of the refinery/extractor, all the money you make is profit. Take this from someone with ~100 warehouses and ~15 extractors and refineries for his construction resource. I make about ~700 million every 4-5 days. Yes, I said 700 million. I throw ~121,000 units of concrete into the system. This last time, they were priced at 5238.00 dollars per unit, which is low for concrete but I wanted them to sell quickly as I was upgrading a city. That's $633,798,000 on 5 days of producing resources. That's way more than the extractors and refineries ever cost me.

Edited by dane0

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There is the cost of labor and power, but it's relatively negligible. Invest your construction resources into infrastructure and get ahead until the price increases.

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Extractors and refineries are totally worth it. Yeah they cost 4 or 10 mw and money but the resources they produce they produce every day. Pretty soon you'll have made more than you spent. I presume the same goes for services and infrastructure as well but I don't know for sure. 

Edited by Sioraf

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Extractors and refineries are totally worth it. Yeah they cost 4 or 10 mw and money but the resources they produce they produce every day. Pretty soon you'll have made more than you spent. I presume the same goes for services and infrastructure as well but I don't know for sure. 

 

Resources definitely provide the best rate of return for anything you can buy, even infrastructure, land, or city upgrades. The only danger, as I've noted, is that this fact will cause game-wide supply to gradually outstrip demand, and prices (and therefore profits) should thus be expected to drop over the long run until some sort of update occurs.

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Resources definitely provide the best rate of return for anything you can buy, even infrastructure, land, or city upgrades. The only danger, as I've noted, is that this fact will cause game-wide supply to gradually outstrip demand, and prices (and therefore profits) should thus be expected to drop over the long run until some sort of update occurs.

Oh trust me. Once military is implemented, you'll never have a supply outstripping demand. Barracks were super expensive and used a ton of infra resources, and high level units cost a shitton of military resources. Plus, larger nations require a ridiculous amount of resources just to upgrade a city (I think I need 100k of every refined construction resource for my next, too lazy to check).

 

But yeah, Refineries and Extractors are definitely worth the cost.

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I think i will point this out before there are anymore calls to cull resource production or something worse.

 

In the long term of this the game structure presently in place will see a form of peak everything, and by that i mean that the glut will go away the present time frame i am thinking is when there are 20% to 60% of all nations have over 100 million population thou that is a guess at the moment and is hard to be exact.

 

The fact is if things go on long enough it will be required to have new players who can make goods much cheaper then the older nations and if there is a stangnation of new players then players will have to limit there own nation growth or suffer starvation when they can not raid enough food from other nations, BUT KEEP IN MIND THIS IS STILL AWHILE OFF and any cut or culling of production ability or something else to cure this glut will bring the things i talk about much sooner.

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A few thoughts on how to deal with the resources glut:

 

Let's try and grow the PT community rather than having a cartel-esque limit on resource output, we should be trying to get as many people playing and creating nations as possible. Cheap resources would help them grow quickly initially which would surely encourage them to stay and keep playing (this can only be a good thing)

 

Rather than people dumping vast amounts of resources into the open market use them more productively, surely in the long-run you'd get more money from creating and expanding more urban areas then you would exporting the same resources at knockdown prices even if the upfront cost of funding and expanding urban areas does get "prohibitively" expensive. based on the amount that my unemployment rate drops once it reaches my nation's autofound level and the current wage levels in my country, expanding a city to an metropolitan area generates around €2.25 million in personal taxes plus a bit more in corporate tax. Factoring in the resource import costs for the expansion, the warehousesand the money for the expansion then comparing it with the money I would receive from exporting my refined construction material at current cheapest sale price, I'd get less than a 10th of the cost of that expansion if I exported the amount of my refined construction material needed to expand that urban area. For 10 times the export value I can get an expansion to an urban area that will generate income every day rather than just once.

 

Hopefully there'll be some sort of update soon creating more functionality, preferably research, if that were to require resources on top of money on a rising scale based on the amount of previous research we'd all have another reason to use our own resources productively within our countries rather than dumping huge amounts to the open market: at that point the roughly 1,000,000,000 resources currently in the game will surely not seem that much and may even make some whingers here on the forums complain about a shortage.

 

Before anyone jumps on my back along the lines of "why do you expect the developers to release anything soon?" or anything similar, you're getting a game for free that has great potential and is in my opinion a significantly better concept than many other nationbuilding games available. The developers need to survive somehow (i.e. Have jobs, earn money) and are allowed to spend their time outside of that having a life rather than just coding a game they don't charge for simply to appease the whining dullsh*ts around here.

Edited by David Neibig

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